Who do you think was behind the 9-11 Attacks?
Osama and al-Qaeda
US Government
Israel
Osama and al-Qaeda with HELP from another Country
Don't Know
Other
Osama and al-Qaeda
6
US Government
0
Israel
0
Osama and al-Qaeda with HELP from another Country
0
Don't Know
3
Other
4
Shortly before the U.S. presidential election in 2004, in a taped statement, bin Laden publicly acknowledged al-Qaeda's involvement in the attacks on the U.S. and admitted his direct link to the attacks. He said that the attacks were carried out because, "we are free ... and want to regain freedom for our nation. As you undermine our security we undermine yours."[96] Bin Laden said he had personally directed his followers to attack the World Trade Center.[92][97] Another video obtained by Al Jazeera in September 2006 shows bin Laden with Ramzi bin al-Shibh, as well as two hijackers, Hamza al-Ghamdi and Wail al-Shehri, as they make preparations for the attacks.[98] The U.S. never formally indicted bin Laden for the 9/11 attacks but he was on the FBI's Most Wanted List for the bombings of the U.S. Embassies inDar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya.[99][100]
However - Much to my surprise I have found out that many people to this day do not buy this. They think something even more sinister is to blame. Here is some of what my good friend said on another blog;
"first of all we are pretty certain from evidence it was the Saudis involved, whether or not Bin Laden was directly will never be known probably. I would have asked interpol or whoever to detain for questioning the two or more saudis that left Florida right before incident and questioned the three dancing israeli's that were there to commemorate event. i would have looked for truth of what happened, versus grabbing a gun and start shooting any one in wild rampage in Iraq and then Afghanistan and let's toss in Pakistan too, chase our boogeyman all over in killing sprees for the benefit of global hegemony and arm manufacturers etc.(of course the spineless fks use other peoples kids to start war, they don't actually fight themselves)"
What? Jews? Saudi's? Dancing Israelis? Oh My!
I am wondering what people on this site think. Just because I believe the corporate owned media version of the events does not preclude me from learning something new. My question is this;
Who do you think was behind 9-11?
I will not engage in attacks or name calling (conspiracy alert) here. I genuinely would like to start a reasonable debate about this very important event in world history.
Got a theory? Let's here it.
~ Randy
Government Insider Says Bush
Authorized 911 Attacks
Authorized 911 Attacks
"I was responsible for the 9/11 operation, from A to Z. I was the operational director for Sheikh Usama [Osama] bin Laden for the organising, planning, follow-up and execution of the 9/11 operation," he allegedly confesses through his personal representative.
Al Qaeda, along with certain branches of the US Government, and the people that were making money off of the invasions behind the scene.
AntwortenLöschenIt was no "coincidence" that they attacked, on the very same day NORAD was doing defensive drills, confusion was created, and that is how they got the planes to hit the towers.
That is the perfect way you start a war, you attack yourself, then you get the support that you need to go and kick the enemies ass.
AntwortenLöschenWe'll never know the full story, but like the account of the Kennedy assasination, I count the 'official' government account of the events of 9/11 about as true as the Wizard of Oz. If they had any proof at all Bin Laden was behind the 9/11 bombings, they would have produced it by now. And it was kind of convenient they had to execute Bin Laden and dispose of his body without letting anyone see it eh?
AntwortenLöschenHey Randy, how about a simpler pole: Do you believe the official account of 9/11, yes or no? No wild conspiracy theories, just a straight question.
AntwortenLöschenHad to vote 'other', because, while I am sure of who it was NOT... 'I don't know' is about it. What it is that I do not know, is which agency or agencies, CIA, NSA, Special Forces, Operation Gladio, Mossad or whatever, were involved. I am confident that it will be known in time, even if not in my lifetime. That is so big an event, its' truth is more important than my life. It's the icon of this era where we met, really. Sensible and Spider were better at this stuff, to be fair. I can't honestly say I specialised in 9-11, at all.
AntwortenLöschenJuicy headline... 'Bush Authorized...'... Rense.com is so disgustingly bad it should be illegal. That nonsense makes it even harder for decent people to get to the truth.
I figure there are four camps. 1) The official version, like you. 2) Made it happen - Bush did it. 3) Let it happen - OBL did it. 4) We don't know who did it - maybe neither Bush nor AQ, maybe CIA... when I see the evidence, I'll let you know.
Those who go the 4th option might also tell you we have known who killed JFK since about 1975. See GR.ca, it's all there.
The question is not so much 'do we know', but 'how to prove it'. Far as I'm concerned, it's obvious the official 9-11 story is a pile of shit. But I'm not a physicist or a New York fireman. I don't condemn you for disagreeing, as I hope you don't condemn me likewise. But I do wonder, when you sometimes come over pretty smart, how you can just ignore 'the side of the story that I see'. I've no interest in trying to bring one another over to the 'darkside'... we are polar opposites, and as things stand, respectfulness is fine.
Those hysterical people who shout '911 was an inside job' are fucking stupid, even if they're right. It will take a tiny number of very good writers and researchers to crack this case. In time, I might be one. Bill is there. Peter Dale Scott. David Ray Griffin. Thierry Meyssan. Some of their names elude me now, but people like that. Read them.
Bush didn't plan it, I think he suspected it was going to happen. Dickie Boy Cheney "KNEW" it was going to happen.
AntwortenLöschenAs for Not's comments about them not knowing that Bin Laden did it, what about all of those videotapes of him admitting to it?
This is a case of "connecting the dots".
AntwortenLöschenYou don't say
AntwortenLöschenWhat, those fuzzy videotapes in which a man that may may or may not be Bin Laden refers to events that may or may not be 9/11. I've seen them and if you believe them you've got one helluva a collection of snake oil.
AntwortenLöschenWhich is the best book, or even newspaper article, you've read on this subject, Quazzy?
AntwortenLöschenThe CIA-al Jazeera tapes are ridiculous. It doesn't even look like him.
AntwortenLöschenWell Not, they did biometrics on the face, and I think that the tape was proven to be legit. He also was sitting there with Zawahiri, talking about it after it happened.
AntwortenLöschenAnd Zawahiri was the crazy one, Bin Laden was more of the figure head.
AntwortenLöschenCan you show the group some evidence for that claim please? A link, confirmed true or not?
AntwortenLöschenI just googled it, and it appears OBL's body was allegedly identified in this way, but I saw nothing to back up your claim, and I thus suspect you are either misinformed or simply confused.
So... where you get that from?
Link please. I've seen an analysis of this video and it was clearly stated there was no proof.
AntwortenLöschenAnd now, some Friday night entertainment...
AntwortenLöschenYeah, Biometrics that! LOL!!
AntwortenLöschenHey Not, I know that you may be disturbed that I educated "BOTH" your colleagues Jen and Phoenix, but lose the attitude, and I may go to the trouble of supplying you a link. Not everyone like yourself lives off links.
AntwortenLöschenbtw, I am not basing my argument off of that picture on the left of Bin Laden, but it does look like him.
And I'm glad that my final parting words on Futbol Mundial really hit the target.
AntwortenLöschenAh, you've got no proof then. Dismissed.
AntwortenLöschenHey Not, I could go to Google or Yahoo, and post half a dozen links about it. What's the point?
AntwortenLöschenOh yes, Bin Laden was this lovely guy, he didn't ever try to attack the US, or bomb any embassies, or anything like that.
The point is you could back up your claims. So are you going to post a link or are you going to keep waffling?
AntwortenLöschenHe was trained by the CIA in Afghanistan. He then went rogue, after the Saudi's let the US put military bases in the country. They knew he was pissed off, they knew he was coming, and they left the door wide open. That is as bad as doing it. The money trail speaks for itself, and so do his cryptic little speeches he made on Al Jazeera. You 2 are so arrogant, that you are letting that blind common sense.
AntwortenLöschenThe point is Not, that you have provided me with shit, so has that other idiot.
AntwortenLöschenHow did you do that?
AntwortenLöschenNow IF you bring Dimski on this thread Not, and not some cheap ass imitation fill in, then I'll provide you with some links, and we can play "the link game".
AntwortenLöschenRandy... it is for YOU to police this, so my apologies in advance ;)
AntwortenLöschenMaximus... back up your claims evidence, or fuck off back to Playschool and stop wasting the grown-ups' time?
*with lol
AntwortenLöschenWe've provided you with a photo that shows there is no resemblance between Bin Laden and the man they claim was Bin Laden. You're seriously telling me you think those two guys are one and the same?
AntwortenLöschenI'm out. This bloke is a fucking idiot, I'm sorry. Why is he even in here?
AntwortenLöschenHe is embarrasing himself on this thread.
AntwortenLöschenI'm gonna walk down the 24 hour and get some air... am up all night. Now, here's a thing. If 'Maximus' quietly disappears and everyone denies kicking him, nobody will know who did it...
AntwortenLöschenNot that I condone such behaviour. But hey... it works. Empire has proved that.
Later.
Hey Remixed imbecile, the fact that someone like you is calling me a fucking idiot, is an absolute joke. I need not prove jack shit to a monkey like you, and you can stew all you like about that last ass whooping I gave you. I mean what a laugh, telling me to put something in the Notes section, on a group that was just floating around in internet space doing nothing. That just shows how much of a reject you are, and you couldn't run a group on your best day, which is why it is good that you took yourself off here as an administrator.
AntwortenLöschenHey asshole, you can try to come and kick me, it won't be me that doesn't end up walking out of the alley.
AntwortenLöschenAnd walk a little further, walk off some peer.
AntwortenLöschenYes, you've mentioned this a couple of times now. Show us where that was? I can, and will when I get back.
AntwortenLöschenSee you in about an hour all. Don't feed the troll.
Harken him, trying to diss my credentials as a group admin, as though this matters. What a tool you are, Q.
Grow up.
I am beating up a man that Captain Sensible already had.
AntwortenLöschenBring Willis to me. How is the arrogant wa**er? Still blind? Oh well. He asked me once, to 'raise my game'. He was a good mentor, in that respect.
AntwortenLöschenI am not your mentor, in fact I think you're my elder... but really man, step sideways and take a lesson from Randy. I've learned from him. He has made me laugh. You have never done either of these things. You don't know how or why.
Grow up, quasiusmaximus. I don't care about past quarrels, even those I lost. I learned and grew. Did you?
What an arrogant and mean thing to say, is he still blind. You are a real piece of work.
AntwortenLöschenAs for making you laugh, I don't care how I make you feel, but I obviously hit a nerve, and that is your problem, not mine.
The fact that you have not walked out the door yet, is testament to the fact that you just can't walk out that door, I own your thoughts.
AntwortenLöschenIf this is the person that you hang out with Not, I question your choice of company.
AntwortenLöschenPERSONAL Attacks. Zero tolerance. We'll warn once, then you're out.
AntwortenLöschenWE DO ask everyone not to bring their personal history in here with them from other forums.
from our house rules.
The admins are watching this thread. This is a warning.
Don't worry Bag, I'm gone. You have done nothing to me and have always been cordial, but I can't belong to a group with this nasty, arrogant bastard anymore.
AntwortenLöschenSee you on the flip side.
lol bye
AntwortenLöschenRandy, feel free to delete the off topic stuff, if you want. Although, I'm proud on our knights, and entertained. ;-) Back on topic, guys!
AntwortenLöschenSorry Randy, what was the question again?
AntwortenLöschen"US Government" is too broad. Evidence would seem to indicate that members of the US government were involved and most likely the White Hose although G.W. was nothing more than a face man; nothing really there. I don't think G.W. put on an act for eight years.. There is no reason for the US government's official version of the World Trade Centre collapse unless they were involved. Come to think of it, maybe that was the brainless child of G.W. because anyone with any real intelligence would have come up with an explanation that fit the facts. For example, it would have made much more sense for G.W. to get up in front of the nation and say, "A sleeper cell of terrorists infiltrated the security force of the WTC and working away in the middle of the night for months ... blah blah blah." That would have made more sense considering that while a major portion of the US population may be undereducated, not all are.
AntwortenLöschenWho ever elae is to blame, it is certain that Iraq had nothing what so ever to do with the September 11th attacks. Why they were linked by the US political machine probably had more to do with the profits to be gained by the paymasters of the politicians wanting a slice of the wealth than any of the bs produced to justify the attack on that country.
AntwortenLöschenAnd not only Iraq. It is well known that plans to invade Afganistan had already been drawn up before 9/11 happened.
AntwortenLöschenWell known? I never heard of it. Iraq yes, there were definitely plans to attack it long before 9/11, but I don't know of any over Afghanistan. Why would we want to?
AntwortenLöschen*waits patiently*
AntwortenLöschen...one of you must be wrong...
:)
Best I could find link wise...
AntwortenLöschenhttp://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/nov2001/afgh-n20.shtml
There is also this, but it is over 90 minutes long. Fascinating watch once you start though...
AntwortenLöschenhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGAOTYOKuEY&list=FLRwJ0wUmbAHxTcLqzySZn5A&index=4&feature=plpp_video
indeed, but there is a common thread to all these wars: Americans funded the people in charge before they turned round and bit the hand that fed them. I find it ironic when Americans say they are spreading democrisy arond the world when at the same time they support opressive regimes and terrorists with American tax dollars.
AntwortenLöschenIn the case of the hard line Muslims it was very useful to them. A religion like Islam provides a more elusive enemy, and a war that can never be 'officially' acknowledged (other than in vague labels like "war on terror"). Unlike Communism, an ideology whose usefulness ended with the fall of the Berlin wall, the "threat" of Islam is enduring, and will continue to be the fuel behind such bills as the Patriot Act.
AntwortenLöschenhere are the links and stuff you were asking for
AntwortenLöschenWhere Did 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?
The Day of 1000 Iconic Photos
Television is our pre-eminent medium of information, entertainment and persuasion, but until now it has not been a medium of record. Understanding 9/11 Television News Archive
The White House Has Been Taken Over By Aliens
That one really doesn't have much other than conjecture that the US couldn't have mounted an offensive that fast without preparation. The Taliban weren't high on anybody's invite list before 9/11, but we already saw the Russians get their heads handed to them, and frankly, until they found the minerals, there wasn't any way to pay for an extended mission there.
AntwortenLöschenMy internet connection is too spotty tonight to try and stream a 90 minute video I am afraid.
IMO - Too many people in involved in the cover up. Would never work. Someone would break. Someone would sign a book deal. With this many people involved there would be a leak by now.
AntwortenLöschenThis is why conspiracies that involve a large groups or organizations or people are never true. It would be impossible to keep everyone silent.
1. Bin Laden admitted it.
AntwortenLöschen2. The can prove Al Queda carried out the attacks. Bin Laden is the head of Al Queda.
3. The guy who put the 9/11 plan together was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. He was a member of Osama bin Laden's terrorist group al-Qaeda organization. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Sheikh_Mohammed
Bin Laden was responsible.
Anybody got the stats for Afganistan's opium exports before and after October 2001?
AntwortenLöschenWe've covered the Bin Laden admitting it part. Have you read all the thread? Your statement sounds very like "Bin Laden was responsible because I say he was". Not really proof I'm afraid.
AntwortenLöschenNope starting the beginning.
AntwortenLöschenWhat evidence?
AntwortenLöschenNo way. Everyone on this site would just pick the "I don't trust the Government - Their version is wrong" option and the thread would die.
AntwortenLöschenAgain - too many people involved in the investigation of 9-11 for everyone to be in on a "LIE." Not everyone is an evil liar. Some dude would stand up and say "I am not lying - this is not the true version - I am going to the press."
This is why conspiracy theories that involve large groups of people and several organizations are not to be taken seriously.
I want the people that think it's all one big conspiracy to have the chance to articulate what they think happened. This is a lot harder than just saying "The government is lying" "Dick Cheney did it" or "Don't believe the corporate owned media."
Many people say these things but provide NO evidence to support their claims. I personally think it's lazy.
My personal contention is, based on the facts that are available, that Osama Bin Laden and his terror group Al - Queda are responsible for 9-11. The only ones responsible.
I would have to concur - lazy, bed time for bonso
AntwortenLöschenSo what you're saying is if you don't believe the "official" version, you MUST have an alternative fully working theory about what DID happen. That just sounds a bit rubbish, frankly. For a start it seems to assume that a government is not capable of lying. For another thing its saying you must believe the government is either 100% telling the truth or 100% lying, which is again utter nonsense.
AntwortenLöschenNope. I guess not Jez.
AntwortenLöschenBut it sure would provide some credibility and credence to your alternative argument.
I believe the earth is round. Based on the evidence that is available.
You might say the earth is flat. The Scientist are lying. It's all a cover up and the *yawn* corporate owned media is on on the cover up.
Fine - the earth might be flat. I am just asking that if you believe the earth is flat to explain to me why you might think that it is.
I think my position is fucking reasonable actually.
Evidence was not the correct word. Not evidence as in a leaked memo.
AntwortenLöschenI think it's part of the historical record that Bush and Cheney were made aware of a possible attack. They were briefed on this for sure. They did not give it, in hindsight, the appropriate attention it deserved. No question.
AntwortenLöschenBut this is a far cry from them "letting it happen."
If we are going to have a meaningful debate, one of the first things we need to do is to not define "Conspiracy Theory" as meaning a nut-whacked theory. Propaganda has instilled that onto the masses but we are not the masses; or I hope we are not. The "official" government explanation is a conspiracy theory.
AntwortenLöschenExcept they have this in their corner; Reputable people backing it and an attempt to provide facts to support their position.
AntwortenLöschenI will take that ANY DAY OF THE WEEK over;
No facts - No one with a reputation to lose supporting alternative theory.
I have always maintained that in order for a theory to have credence you must first get someone with a reputation to lose to support it.
If all you have is Michael Moore and Rosie O'Donnel than really no one can take you seriously.
I am only interested in what serious people with reputations to lose have to say about these things. If they say 9/11 was a cover up then I will pay attention.
If it's some YAHOO in his parents basement spouting off about Building 7 then I just laugh.
This means different things to different people.
AntwortenLöschenTo me it means; "In the absence of facts, I believe this happened."
Some theories have more credence than others.
The theory of evolution and global warming have serious people backing it. People that are reputable.
The theory that the "The JEWS knew about 9-11 and didn't tell us" has no serious people backing it.
I always look at - WHO IS BACKING THE THEORY?
Why would it? I have seen enough arguments to pick holes in the "official" version of events. How does that put an obligation on me to tell people what did happen? I'm as much in the dark as anyone, I just don't believe that the government have shone any light on the situation. Call me a cynic, but I don't believe anything they've told me, and I find alternatives theories that I've hear equally suspect.
AntwortenLöschenHow is that not reasonable?
Thanks Randy, this is a good read... I'd wade in, but too tired for this right now. Also, not sure it's worth debating, when confronted with the kind of thinking that goes 'conspiracy theory = crazy, tin foil hats etc'.
AntwortenLöschenI note that YOU do not say that, and your point at the last here, to look at who backs a theory, is a good one. I'll just pick up on one point... where you say OBL admitted it... must admit, I heard the opposite. May grab a link or something later if you need it.
I hope the group has seen this week why we don't want people like that in here? Not my call... but SHOW me a thread where someone like that was involved, and it didn't just turn into a petty argument?
One of our most regular members left, feeling all the political groups on Multiply have gone to the dogs. That is what happens when you allow standards to slip. Trolls like these are the reason I was such a micro-manager in the beginning, whatever you thought of that. IS IT really entertaining, or do we prefer a place where we don't have to suffer fools like these?
You know where I stand on 9-11. I figure 'AQ' radicals did it, with help from *whoever*. It can't have been widely known, true. Someone would have talked... BUT, as for them 'breaking'... many did. Many are dead. Winesses, caretakers etc. Could specialise and spend a lifetime studying it, and still not know for certain.
I think it's naive to think the government / Pentagon / corporations / intelligence / Mossad or CIA *wouldn't* do it.
I think the Safari Club, the Saudi connection, Operation Gladio and the money laundering network, BCCI, Pakistan etc, set up under GHW Bush when he was CIA director, is key to understanding the money trail. I sincerely doubt any researcher will ever be able to nail that down and live to tell the tale... it's also far too big for just a blog, or I would. Not that I feel I understand it nearly well enough to attempt to do that bit of writing justice, in any case. Joseph Trento's 'Prelude to Terror' is a favourite book on the subject, if anyone's interested.
AntwortenLöschenI fully agree with you Randy, there is still people who see Elvis everyday also, you will never convince the conspiracy people, as if a government operation could be kept so secret after 11 years is incredable and so far fetched.
AntwortenLöschenI'm still looking for that crucial damning evidence that he admitted responsibility, Rob... can you point me the right way?
AntwortenLöschenFound the denial vid, and the rather badly done fake CIA tapes with those men who look nothing like Bin Laden... but a remotely believable video or indisputable statement from Bin Laden saying that he, and his 'Al Qaeda' organisation, accept responsibility for the attacks, is proving somewehat difficult to find.
It's not 'government'. Or at least, it doesn't need to have been.
Point 2 here says 'they can prove Al Qaeda carried out the attacks'. Please do.
Just one last quick note... as to the question of how you keep something so diabolical a secret.
AntwortenLöschen'Fraternity' is how. I'm not going to make any outlandish claim, but you probably all know what happened to Roberto Calvi.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2004/10/29/binladen_message041029.html
AntwortenLöschenWho can prove that it was someone other than Bin Laden and Al Queda?
Been having this same convo with Gurcan, and it's interesting how ambiguous it is, 11 years on. It really comes down to which news source you trust. Is the BBC 'reliable'? CBC? Global Research?
AntwortenLöschenThis is what I'm trying to ascertain. I just can't pin down 'denial or admission', one way or the other, not concrete.
Will check your link, thanks.
You asking me, seriously? I vote "other" because Al Qaeda and the Empire are close allies. So it's Al Qaeda AND the Empire who did it, together. The Empire includes the US government, its NATO vassals and the Zionist entity, FYI.
AntwortenLöschenNow, if it were India, I'd have said that anyone who was still going on and on about something that happened eleven years ago was seriously crazy. But then of course, India would not have started a ten year losing war over a so-called 9/11 either, so...
AntwortenLöschenToo many people. Too many organizations. Someone would talk. Someone would ink a 100 Million dollar book deal spilling the details.
AntwortenLöschenConspiracies only work if the number of people that need to keep the secret is at a bare minimum.
It doesn't need a conspiracy, Randy. All it takes is to turn a deliberate blind eye to the preparations, so that the strike can go ahead. Whether or not it's 'assisted' by explosives is another question, and not one I am qualified to answer.
AntwortenLöschenI would think that if a handful of guys DO know of some conspiracy, like Cheney and some high ranking fraternal brothers, probably not Bush... then their loyalty to one another is unwavering, and the 'someone would have talked' idea doesn't fly. Nobody has talked about the murder of Roberto Calvi, have they?
AntwortenLöschenI don't know how you might rig a building with explosives without a large team of trained personnel... I guess those buildings are rigged up like that when they're built, to assist pancake demolition if ever necessary?
As for others who might have talked, many are dead:
I guess I was in on the conspiracy since I was involved in the World trade construction in the design and installation of the curtain wall system, it's all so insane!
AntwortenLöschenGeneralisations don't win arguments I'm afraid.
AntwortenLöschenHere's a question: what kind of criminal investigation are we aware of was carried out in order to ascertain Bin Laden's guilt?
AntwortenLöschenAll conspiracy theories have big holes in them. In order to cover up these holes, you have to create even bigger holes.
AntwortenLöschenTake the secrecy aspect. This is almost impossible to maintain, over time, in a large organization. There is ALWAYS somebody who will 'spill the beans'. For whatever reason. He may be passed over for promotion by someone else. He may regret to have joined this club. Or to gain fame and fortune. Exposing the Bilderberg conspiracy will earn you a Pulitzer Prize at least and MILLIONS in book deals.
In order to keep the conspiracy going - that needs to be addressed. Usually the arguments are the stick and carrot. People with second thoughts are bought off, threatened, their family is threatened or permanently silenced.
Sounds convincing, right? But now the numbers start working against it. That would be possible in a small organization, like the mafia (There are leaks all the time in the Mafia). Were everybody knows everybody. Can you imagine an organization as big as NASA (the moon hoax) controlling +300.000 people forever? Can you really prevent someone spilling the beans from the grave? Someone who tells all after his death by testament?
So by using common sense you can debunk most of these theories quite easily.
I have a problem with many of these 9/11 conspiracy theories, just because I am not an expert in explosions, airplanes, crash-holes, numbers of people who are in a building at which time usually, and so on. If somebody argues with this, I can only smile politely, say "Ah, conspiracy theory!" and that was it. If somebody argues conclusively, he may convince me that planes don't fly at all. Or that I should buy a three-legged horse.
AntwortenLöschen