Then it turned into a personal feud of opinions here and there, too.
Of course, the latter is unproductive.
Here is my condensed view on this matter.
The West strove to emancipate the woman. Its history for that is actually relatively recent. Even prior to WW-II, women in the West was a second class citizen. Nevertheless, because the human civilization is growing at an exponential rate, changes happen at stunning rates, too.
That so-called exponential rate, however, is restricted by the CURRENT state of the society. An advanced society has a faster rate and a retarded society has a retarded rate... Consequently, the GAP between the retarded and advanced societies is steadily getting WIDER.
There is also a REACTION component to that. As retarded societies fall behind, instead of striving for modern values, they have a tendency for retreating in to the dark eras of the past, because it is a "power period extender" for the rulers who have FAILED to to keep up with the Contemporary values of advanced Civilization.
Allow me to be more concrete.
I am talking here about the current state of the "Western" civilization as an aggregate of the European culture's "intellectual values" in contrast to the "Cleric's values" of the Muslim world.
I hardly care about the "Christian Cleric's values of the Western World", because it is historically in process of being defeated already. Please note my qualifier about the "Clerics' values" in contrast to lay people's.
Currently, the "Middle East", not as a geographical entity, but rather as a cultural entity, reaching from Morocco all the way to Pakistan as "Islam", is in a political struggle as an antithesis of the West
Note that, many other "Muslim" countries are NOT included in that description, such as Indonesia.
In that scope, there is one country with a DUBIOUS identity: Turkey.
I am an ex-patriot of Turkey. Hence, I have a great incentive to worry about the well being of my relatives and acquaintances there, because I can EVALUATE the situation there more reliably.
Lately, the country is going through (1) an unprecedented economic expansion, and (2) unprecedented Islamization.
The USA is intimately close to the government(s) there. As a matter of fact, without US endorsement, the current government would have ZERO chance to remain in power.
What is the problem then?
Well, the current government is using "Islamism" to justify its "electoral" existence. I have said "electoral", rather than "democratic", because there is a GREAT difference. One emphasizes that the voters are informed, the other does not.
The CURRENT government n Turkey is PROMOTING Islamism and along with that the oppression of woman's emancipation under a DISGUISE of free choice.
Free Choice is one only if you are well informed and are free of threats and extortion.
However, that hardly applies to the poor and the ignorant women in Turkey.
The "government" is pushing hard to allow "head scarves" in government offices. It is only a prelude to total segregation of man and women. It is only an appeasement of the "left behind" archaic population of Turkey, to sponsore votes.
In the process, we are watching a country to potentially succumb BACK into the dark ages of the Middle East, AFTER 70 decades of top down Westernization.
I, as an expat with insight and friends and relatives, cannot endorse.
I accuse those, who PROMOTE these BACKWARDS steps in that ONLY "western-style Muslim democracy" as representing the "free spirit of the west" as LIARS and DISINGENUOUS people.
I invite them to present their true faces and their true philosophy.
Hoping that it may help. I have a short collection of YouTube videos which demonstrate what a the Republic of Turkey has become under that Islamist government.
Supporters of that should be ashamed of themselves.
Şeriatçı Yobazlar!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9eM1TyG15I&feature=related
YOBAZLAR Vatan Gazetesi ekibine saldırıyorlar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cANfRoZsOsQ&feature=related
tessetür allahın emri hz fatıma annemizin sünnetidir
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKoV_dJFHJY&feature=related
başörtüsü & karaböcükler...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z--Mht1gusk&feature=related
Thank you for your sincere and unpretentious reply/post. I take it as a complete post by itself, since it is so extensive.
AntwortenLöschenI admit that I may have mis-judged your post about "nipples", because I have not know your general views, and your words may not have been enough for me to capture that.
Putting that aside...
This whole issue is not something, which we can classify and identify in a few lines.
That an enlightened and liberated woman chooses to wear a cover-all is NOT the same as an illiterate captive woman doing so, because she has no alternative.
To put them into the same basket is not only wrong, but doing so *in spite of being aware* of the difference, is a crime against morality, IMO.
Today's Islam is CERTAINLY not at the forefront of individual liberties, less so regarding women.
That has NOTHING how one reads the words in Koran, since not a single verse there has a clear meaning without interpretation as it suits the current political agenda.
I am NOT damning Islam to praise Christianity or Judaism. Every word I say is as applicable to those same Abrahamic Religions, perhaps to non-Abrahamic ones as well (I know way too little about the others to make any assertion)
There is one FUNDAMENTAL issue here...
In the West, we have a number of Muslim immigrants. They have a different culture than we are accustomed to. They did NOT force their way into the respective countries. Instead, they were LEGALLY admitted to take residence there.
Of course they will have DIFFERENT customs, different social values, different music, different cloths.
To expect any other way is ludicrous.
Yet, after they have been admitted BY OUR GOVERNMENTS, we find it our RIGHT to SHUN them for being different?
THAT is not acceptable to me.
Furthermore, by doing so, we are creating a rift in our society which will most likely lead to VIOLENCE.
If you are a SELF-RESPONSIBLE citizen, I invite you to AVOID that.
It is not an attempt to free women, but an indirect attempt to make sure our Islamaphobia doesn't get out of hand. Easy points for the politicians at the expense of a few women.
AntwortenLöschenExactly my view, too.
AntwortenLöschenYeah, I wasn't saying it was an attempt to free women, either.
AntwortenLöschenI was saying it was an attempt to use women for political gain while pretending to "free" them.
Wait, I should be more specific: The attempt to ban headscarves in France is masquerading as an attempt to free women. I don't know enough about the situation in Turkey to speak to motives, but it *sounds* like another situation in which women are caught in the middle, between those who want to force them to do something and those who want to force them not to. I don't see any real concern for the women in either position.
Because surely the ignorance or education, the freedom or oppression, the equality or the relative powerlessness of women is not going to be decided by whether they must or whether they may not wear headscarves. Both of those positions, regardless of intentions, are paternalistic. The huge murky grey area of good intentions combined with bad actions says that, since some would force women to wear headscarves, and the women lack the knowledge, freedom, and power to refuse, the thing to do is strike back against those evil oppressors of women by making it illegal for them to force women to wear headscarves is--well, oppressive and silly.
The way to address the problem is to educate--wait, I already said that.
Indeed!
AntwortenLöschen