Back in the day, you either thought about your nipples or you didn't. And if you did, you either did something about them or you didn't.
To be specific, back in the day, if you were female, it either crossed your mind to make sure that no one could ever, under any circumstances, see your nipples through your clothes, or it didn't. If it did, you either laid in a supply a spot Band-Aids or surgical adhesive tape or you didn't.
Chances are that, if you did, you weren't so nipple-conscious all the time that you even taped or bandaged your boobs to go swimming.
I can't help noticing that, lately, nipples seem to be on everyone's mind, especially the minds of people who want to make some nipple-related money. What's more, they seem to be on everyone's mind as a bad thing, the kind of thing most people want to keep hushed up.
Or so I conclude, from the sudden and wide availability of products designed to help women keep their overly assertive nipples in check and out of sight. Go bra shopping, and you'll find a variety of bras with built-in nipple hiders. You can buy disposable or reusable nipple covers and protectors, made from an array of different materials. I saw a bra the other day that advertised its nipple-barring "petals" with the slogan "headlights are for cars." Standing in line to pay for some clothes a couple weeks ago, I noticed that one of the impulse-buy items was a box of reusable silicon nipple covers, complete with suggestion for use with bathing suits.
Is it me, or is there a message at work here, even beyond the message that the corporate world provides us with an ever-new supply of products for ever-more-specific uses, to meet hitherto unknown "needs"? If so, what is that message?
What do you think? Is there one? What is it? Is it pro-feminist, anti-feminist, or neither? Is flattering unflattering toward women? Toward men?
And most of all: Do I need to rush out and buy all new bras and boxes of nipple-effacing disks and flowers in order to gain and keep the respect of my students?
How silly!
AntwortenLöschenWell, Barbie doesn't have nipples, she never had, as far as I know. When Barbie is your role model you have to hide your nipples. I just wonder, when I see photos from Hollywood stars, they show more flesh than ever, decolletes to the belly, back only some laces and then they should hide their nipples? Ridiculous!
I remember a sequel of "Sex and the City" where one of the protagonists had artificial nipples under her t-shirt, with the consequence that the man she talked to wasn't able to look into her eyes anymore. So maybe it's wise to hide them, when you want them listen to your words....
AntwortenLöschenMaybe.
AntwortenLöschenOr maybe this is another way of telling women that they'd better hide anything men might possibly find appealing, because men are just beasts with no self-control.
That's absolutely insulting to men.
It's also one of the most traditional ways of controlling women. No matter how subtle or mild the current version may be, IF male attraction is the idea behind it, then it's part of the aged but not venerable tradition of controlling women with the threat of rape--and excusing men who rape women.
"It's really not his fault. After all, her nipples showed through her bra, and everyone knows what men are like."
Interesting contradiction you bring up here--not just Barbie and stars, but the revealing clothes stars are pretty much expected to wear and the desire to keep ordinary women's nipples well hidden.
AntwortenLöschenI'll have to think about that...
I shouldn't need to say this, but the world being what it is, I probably do:
AntwortenLöschenComments from men are welcome: You have all the experience and knowledge you need to talk about this issue.
Maybe you have completely different thoughts than anyone has mentioned so far, but no matter what they, all ideas that differentiate between the genders affect men as well as women.
For instance, if I were a man, whether I thought that this nipple thing was part of it of it or not, the idea I just mentioned would piss me off. The whole idea that women have to hide their bodies and protect themselves from the violence that would be otherwise be perpetrated by men is based on the idea that men are basically uncontrolled, animalistic, violent beasts. I'd be angry that women were being intimidated and controlled, and I'd be angry that some men do hurt women, for the sake of women and for the sake of the men who don't. I'd be angry about a lie that gives them tacit permission to do it. I'd be angry that men were portrayed as barely human, hardly rational, morally bankrupt, and totally lacking in self-control. I'd be even more pissed by the idea that self-control is all that keeps any man from being a rapist, because men are so selfish or sadistic by nature that they don't care that they're torturing someone or enjoy it.
Wait a minute. That's how I *do* feel.
The point is that men have a stake, too, and are more than welcome to join the conversation.
I'll have to admit that I haven't read all of this in any detail......
AntwortenLöschenHowever, when I see "politics" and "nipples" in the same heading... why do I think of our elected representatives, and all that they say?
That's why women wear scarfs, veils and burqas. It's absolutely not acceptable for liberated, self-determined women and men. The dress codex of business women in our Western culture is serious, elegant, not too sexy. Nipples aren't erected in this environment, no need to suppress them.
AntwortenLöschenI agree; this is the same issue as the burqa and the centuries of Judaism western Christianity making women cover their heads.
AntwortenLöschenYou forget, though, that temperature plays a role in these things. Suits certainly make that irrelevant for men and women, but other business attire doesn't.
To turn the whole thing on its head, what would happen if men were told they had to dress modestly to save themselves from the uncontrolled and violent lust of other men? Or even to get other men to look them in the eye and pay attention? After all, one in ten men is gay. If men are such uncontrolled animals, then men need to protect themselves through modest dress, too.
Gregers, I think you have been listening to too much anti-welfare rhetoric.
Og, and the title was just a proactive, smartass way to deal with suggestions that the topic isn't political.
AntwortenLöschenNot at all, I've been listening to too many politicians!
AntwortenLöschenYes, but politicians generally only talk about nipple-related things when making claims about welfare recipients or the nature of welfare.
AntwortenLöschenI was just being specific where you were being general. Or is there a whole breast-related strain of political rhetoric that I've somehow missed?
I was thinking that every time they open their mouths, they get right on my nipples!!!
AntwortenLöschenAnd here, I thought you were talking about the whole "sucking at the public teat" meme.
AntwortenLöschenThat is a bit deep for me... I am a simple man!!!
AntwortenLöschenActually, within certain parameters, what men focus on as visually stimulating female parts is quite variable, determined by current clothing customs. The basic rule of thumb (if you'll pardon the expression), is that whatever you usually hide, but sometimes reveal or almost reveal, will attract our avid interest.
AntwortenLöschenIf you don't want undue nipular attention, the worst thing that women as a group can do is obsessively hide them. If their visibility is not a big deal to you, it won't be to us, either. We'll still enjoy looking, but we're less likely to get in a traffic accident because of it.
Just be happy that you're not part of that small group of genetically deprived women in New Delhi...the "Indian nipple-less 500". :)
That deserves pun-itive measures.
AntwortenLöschenI'm not so much worried about what men look at as what the message is for women. And about women. And about men.
I agree that the focus is partly culturally determined, though.
I think you should go with see-through shirts and no bra. ;-)
AntwortenLöschenAt the very least most of your male students and a portion of the female ones would pay attention.
It is true that when you are in an environment where people are generally wearing very revealing clothing (or almost no clothing at all) how quickly the novelty wears off.
AntwortenLöschenTHEY have no problem with that:
AntwortenLöschenBeing afraid of nakedness (in the West) is due to the Christian Church.
What is now being shunned as oppression of woman's attractiveness in Islam, was commonplace in Europe until the industrial revolution and beyond.
Indeed...
AntwortenLöschenMost of the "New Fashion" is just that... a NEW way of exposing something kept hidden so far...
like the bellybutton...
The truth is that the WORST thing that can happen for women is acceptance of nudity...
Yuck! Imagine walking across the mall...
True, that.
AntwortenLöschenI think that if women covered the napes of their necks but nothing else, neck napes would suddenly be fascinating--and nothing else would.
Why that only be bad for women?
AntwortenLöschenTo what I was saying?
AntwortenLöschenIf I thought that, I might be tempted to give it a try. But somehow, I don't think it would really help with that whole thesis statement-topic statement relationship thing.
It was.
AntwortenLöschenBut I always thought it was oppression of women, with their dangerous, tempting attractiveness (and the supposed total lack of ability of men to control themselves) as the warrant.
I am speechless!
AntwortenLöschenSheesh... I had thought that that was their BIGGEST weapon!
AntwortenLöschenWhose? And which? Attractiveness in women? Or alleged lack of self-control in men?
AntwortenLöschenI'd say the allegation IS.
We all know that if it were not for evil EVE we the men would be in paradise...
AntwortenLöschen:P
(No, you are not allowed to respond to that!)
:)))
Hey, why not be straightforward:
Surely man are VERY attracted to female figure, including legs, hips, waist, breasts, neck, lips, cheeks, hair, eye-lashes, eye brows, hands, fingers...
I have NO clue what women are attracted to in men (besides the wallet).
Why is this BAD? That is the way it is. I am MADE this way by nature. Yes, in HS, when our teacher in her short skirt would sit on the desk and would cross her legs, boys would masturbate.
Is that "disgusting" for you?
I do not get what you are trying to get at?
And breasts... and nipples,,, sure... your erogenous zones... which swell up and harden when aroused sexually... What do you find WEIRD about that?
I wish I could follow your thesis. But I can;t.
wow...
AntwortenLöschenI need to take time to read it and see who I have earned the hate of a woman...
You haven't read it, but you know I "hate" you? Wow, you could make a fortune with those psychic powers.
AntwortenLöschenTry again; when you read, you'll find a point-by-point, detailed response to what you said, delivered with more respect than the comment to which I was responding.
Hate you? I don't know you. I responded to what you said, not who you are.
(GENERAL ADVICE TO MEN: STAY AWAY FROM AN ANGRY WOMAN UNTIL SHE COOLS DOWN A BIT)
AntwortenLöschenYou're smarter than this, and you've underestimated me. Stop trolling.
AntwortenLöschenOr at least go try to provoke a more likely prospect.
I'm off to teach now, anyway.
trolling? I resent you accusing me of that.
AntwortenLöschenInstead ask me "to get lost" and I would oblige.
Karen, after reading it once I admire you. I'll have to read it two, three times, steal it, transform it, make it my own, finally. Thank you, big sister, friend.
AntwortenLöschenperhaps you can help us the "other gender" also appreciate it?
AntwortenLöschenDo you mean me Gurcan? Appreciate what?
AntwortenLöschenApparently, I did not get the inner meaning of the post.
AntwortenLöschenI keep trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it's all too clear you are a clueless misogynist and have questionable racial attitudes as well.
AntwortenLöschenMaybe i;m wrong about the misogyny and racism... maybe you're just plain clueless.
It'd help if you read/listen more and speak/write less.
You've got a LOT to learn about modern discourse.
Jen, Jen, Jen...
AntwortenLöschenHow can you even hint that it's misogynistic to reply about (not to) a person who is not, in fact, angry but who happens to be female by posting a comment based on the following assumptions?
A woman who expresses her opinions about sexism strongly must hate some man or other;
A woman who denies hating a person must be angry;
Since women are all alike and basically interchangeable, it is reasonable to say that they will all behave alike when angry (or, presumably, cheerful, thoughtful, morose, sleepy, sneezy, or doc); and
Since women are clearly the enemy, any man who is told by another man that a woman is angry will immediately assume that she is, despite clear evidence to the contrary, and will therefore show solidarity with the first man by agreeing that all women are alike and should be avoided when angry--and by attacking the specific woman in question.
Oh, sorry, that last one is different somehow, isn't it? Let me think...one of these things is not like...hmm...the others...thinking....thinking... Ah, I have it! That last one is filled with sexist assumptions--about men.
There it is again, that typical angry, man-hating bitch argument that sexism is bad for and insulting to men as well as women. What's next, all men are rapists?
Thank you. I'm glad you liked it, and I consider a compliment from you to be a compliment, indeed.
AntwortenLöschenOh, I don't think *men* are unable to follow an examination of the logical implications of saying that women must accept restrictions in order to protect themselves, because men are helpless, mindless, drooling ogres with no self-control. I think *you* are.
AntwortenLöschenI think most men also won't having any trouble noticing the implied insult to their intelligence in your request to Baglava to help them, the poor, stupid dears who can't understand how sexism is bad for everyone.
I apologize without reservation and retract the assertion. I thought you were saying things you didn't mean in a deliberate attempt to provoke a response.
AntwortenLöschenI guess the man who said in a PM that you were just resorting to misogyny in lieu of a proper response was right.
Well, of course he was right. The difference is that he thought (and you have now verified) that you were being sincerely misogynistic, but I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.
Although, come to think of it, trying to provoke a woman to an emotional response--and assuming you could, with ease--so you could go nanny-nanny-boo-boo, look at the girlie girl, all hurt and emotional, would have been misogynistic, too.
So, you were posting snotty, misogynistic (and emotional, come to think of it) blather, but you were not trolling. Got it. I should have called you out for sexism, insulting women as a gender and men as a gender, projecting your angry feelings onto me, attempting to intimidate me by accusing me of being irrational and emotional, and taking yourself much too seriously. I'm sorry I accused you of trolling instead.
made me laugh you did there Miss Jen ....
AntwortenLöschenI love you Karen .... :) :) :)
AntwortenLöschenYou sure have a " way with words " ( for a woman )
;-)
AntwortenLöschenlol
AntwortenLöschen..
there there...
AntwortenLöschenThank you. And yes, please do add me back--and call me Karen. (Almost anything but Luna works, actually.)
AntwortenLöschenremixedphoenix saidI chose to make this comment because I felt a fellow man should,
Thank you especially for that; it's a rare person who will do what you did there. It can bring on some real backlash--or lead to being completely ignored. (Routinely, when discussing race, a friend of mine and I say the same thing; he's called a racist--and I'm not. If I won't shut up, eventually I'll be ignored. White people don't think of me as anti-white racist, but they don't stop to think that it's privilege working for me when he gets called a racist and I don't. It's usually around the time I point that out that the ignoring begins. I can't imagine why.) May you always receive respectful attention when speaking about --well, I was going to say gender, but really, anything.
I appreciate anyone who is part of a privileged group being willing to speak out, because part of privilege is that no one can say you're speaking from self-interest.
(Now, about that money I promised you...)
This reply threaded wrong--or rather, I threaded it wrong--so it sounded goofy. I was trying to say that, embarrassingly enough, I'm not sure I know what your name is...
AntwortenLöschenlol I don't use my real name here. Some call me Mike.
AntwortenLöschenRare? If you say so. Thanks.
Perhaps not as rare as those who rejuvenate by self-immolation, but yes, rare.
AntwortenLöschenOh, and the title was pure smartassery--because I remembered someone making a fuss about something too "female" not being appropriate for a political group a while back. ;-)
AntwortenLöschenlol We could call it "political Kaffeeklatsch"
AntwortenLöschenWe could. But wouldn't that be redundant? ;-)
AntwortenLöschenWill think it over, but could be fun. :-) A good name for a TV show maybe...
AntwortenLöschenWay too civilized for TV.
AntwortenLöschenOkay, maybe not. I understand they did some good yelling in the 18th century.
I just saw this dummy a few day ago, thought even dummies have them, must take a photo for this thread. You see Karen, you inspired my attention. :D
AntwortenLöschenLOL! That dummy is asking for it. What a tease. ;-)
AntwortenLöschenThe purpose of the mannequin is to show what the garment looks like when you're wearing it, yes? So, by definition, it needs to be 'lifelike', yes? Cor, that dummy is giving me the horn...
AntwortenLöschenGosh, Mike, I can't believe you were left behind after the rapture...
AntwortenLöschenSeriously, I was wishing you were a member of TJN the other day, when a man came onto a thread about something offensive a legislator said about rape and started complaining about how much it sucks to be a man and how easy women have it, always sticking it to men by getting child support...
He concluded that Jen and I are angry black women who hate white men, at least at one point. How did race get into it? Well, you see, it was racist of me to say that it is not *usually* women who abandon their kids--meaning when anyone does, of course.
Truly, I wished you were there. If I'd known you had a thing for mannequins, I might bribed you with some photos...