http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/6386/
I've begun digging on this topic, following this claim by a friend, elsewhere:
"Remember the ex-Yugoslavia? Remember all those front page articles about the supposed "ethnic cleansing" by the Serbs? That demonised sovereign nation which was likened by those "erudite" broadsheets as akin to Nazi Germany?
Remember?
Let me tell you a little "secret"... one which your [US] newspapers failed to reveal.
The Serb "holocaust"? The one which lead NATO (the gendarmes of the USA) to bomb a country for 78 days non-stop? You know how many "mass graves" were found?
Yeah... I didn't think so.
The FBI failed to find a single mass grave. Uh huh. Funny how that "little" secret failed to get mentioned.
The Spanish forensic team did the same, its leader angrily denouncing "a semantic pirouette by the war propaganda machines". That's right.
Del Ponte's tribunal announced the final count of the dead in Kosovo: 2,788. This included combatants on both sides and Serbs and Roma murdered by the KLA.
2,788. That's less casualties than the American Civil War. And an entire nation was smashed to smithereens because of a US lead PR campaign. The war mongers at work. Tell me which one of your great newspapers spilled the beans regarding THAT little secret?
So, forgive me if I take what you say with the proverbial pinch of sodium chloride."
**********************************************************************************************
My co-moderator here, Diio, remarked that he was unable to find much online to back up this statement, so I'm looking...
Here's one or two to start us off...
The Rise of The Laptop Bombardier
March 2009
"Journalists and editors did more than simply cheer NATO’s bombing of Belgrade: they wrote the script for it."
Full article at link
Meanwhile... Gurcan, if you will, I remember a great piece you wrote (for yourself) on the Balkans in general... would you mind posting it here?
Albania, Macedonia, Bosnia, Serbia etc.... I still don't think I've quite got my head around it all
Don't Forget Yugoslavia
by John Pilger
The secrets of the crushing of Yugoslavia are emerging, telling us more about how the modern world is policed. The former chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia in The Hague, Carla Del Ponte, this year published her memoir, The Hunt: Me and War Criminals. Largely ignored in Britain, the book reveals unpalatable truths about the West's intervention in Kosovo, which has echoes in the Caucasus.
The tribunal was set up and bankrolled principally by the United States. Del Ponte's role was to investigate the crimes committed as Yugoslavia was dismembered in the 1990s. She insisted that this include NATO's 78-day bombing of Serbia and Kosovo in 1999, which killed hundreds of people in hospitals, schools, churches, parks, and television studios and destroyed economic infrastructure. "If I am not willing to [prosecute NATO personnel]," said Del Ponte, "I must give up my mission." It was a sham. Under pressure from Washington and London, an investigation into NATO war crimes was scrapped.
Readers will recall that the justification for the NATO bombing was that the Serbs were committing "genocide" in the secessionist province of Kosovo against ethnic Albanians. David Scheffer, U.S. ambassador-at-large for war crimes, announced that as many as "225,000 ethnic Albanian men aged between 14 and 59" may have been murdered. Tony Blair invoked the Holocaust and "the spirit of the Second World War." The West's heroic allies were the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), whose murderous record was set aside. The British foreign secretary, Robin Cook, told them to call him anytime on his mobile phone.
With the NATO bombing over, international teams descended upon Kosovo to exhume the "holocaust." The FBI failed to find a single mass grave and went home. The Spanish forensic team did the same, its leader angrily denouncing "a semantic pirouette by the war propaganda machines." A year later, Del Ponte's tribunal announced the final count of the dead in Kosovo: 2,788. This included combatants on both sides and Serbs and Roma murdered by the KLA. There was no genocide in Kosovo. The "holocaust" was a lie. The NATO attack had been fraudulent.
That was not all, says Del Ponte in her book: the KLA kidnapped hundreds of Serbs and transported them to Albania, where their kidneys and other body parts were removed; these were then sold for transplant in other countries. She also says there was sufficient evidence to prosecute the Kosovar Albanians for war crimes, but the investigation "was nipped in the bud" so that the tribunal's focus would be on "crimes committed by Serbia." She says the Hague judges were terrified of the Kosovar Albanians – the very people in whose name NATO had attacked Serbia.
Indeed, even as Blair the war leader was on a triumphant tour of "liberated" Kosovo, the KLA was ethnically cleansing more than 200,000 Serbs and Roma from the province. Last February the "international community," led by the U.S., recognized Kosovo, which has no formal economy and is run, in effect, by criminal gangs that traffic in drugs, contraband, and women. But it has one valuable asset: the U.S. military base Camp Bondsteel, described by the Council of Europe's human rights commissioner as "a smaller version of Guantanamo." Del Ponte, a Swiss diplomat, has been told by her own government to stop promoting her book.
Yugoslavia was a uniquely independent and multi-ethnic, if imperfect, federation that stood as a political and economic bridge in the Cold War. This was not acceptable to the expanding European Community, especially newly united Germany, which had begun a drive east to dominate its "natural market" in the Yugoslav provinces of Croatia and Slovenia. By the time the Europeans met at Maastricht in 1991, a secret deal had been struck; Germany recognized Croatia, and Yugoslavia was doomed. In Washington, the U.S. ensured that the struggling Yugoslav economy was denied World Bank loans and the defunct NATO was reinvented as an enforcer. At a 1999 Kosovo "peace" conference in France, the Serbs were told to accept occupation by NATO forces and a market economy, or be bombed into submission. It was the perfect precursor to the bloodbaths in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Link:
http://www.antiwar.com/pilger/?articleid=13303
Related:
http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2007/03/carla-del-ponte-slams-muted-response.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/12/warcrimes.kosovo
Pictured: Carla Del Ponte
I need to do some digging but here is an article of interest
AntwortenLöschenIn The Balkans, The Headlines Preceded The War Fanning The Flames
A lot of people who were fanning the flames of hatred back in the 1990s have since become “moderates” because the authorities they follow have become “moderate.” They continue to lie, but their lies are “light” ones.
People today aren’t going to take up arms and go on killing sprees because of what they read in the press. But many did back in 1991 and 1992.
And journalists themselves were pressured to practice “patriotic journalism.” This was promoted as a duty to one’s ethnic group and one’s country, but it was really just a guise for censorship and hate speech.
'Manufactured Ethnic Conflict'
http://www.rferl.org/content/In_The_Balkans_The_Headlines_Preceded_The_War/1757912.html
Just as the lies they broadcast then created the conditions for the wars, perhaps their role now in hiding the truth keeps those conditions in place.
I am glad you posted this thread, Mike.
AntwortenLöschenWhat I will never forget from the time before the Nato started to bomb Serbia, Germany never joined wars after world war II in memory of our history as aggressor in whole Europe. At that time we had a coalition of social-democrats and the green party, both decided anti-militaristic parties, who seemed to say "never war again" from their deepest hearts, then we started to join our first war with the Nato!
I will never understand what made these parties break all their promises. And I remember well the propaganda lies they told us to convince us, the people, unwilling to go to war, that it is necessary to join and to bomb the Serbs.
There seems to be a self-running mechanism once the propaganda starts to demonize other countries, religions, races it leads to war.
Not one publishing house was willing to print Del Ponte's book, except for a small independent one in Italy which produced a limited run before it, too, was threatened to stop its printing run. I was able to get a copy of the book in Italian.
AntwortenLöschenCarla Del Ponte was also summarily ordered to cease and desist and demoted to become the Swiss Ambassador to Argentina.
Keep in mind that this woman had no love of Serbs and a particular distaste for Milosevic. One has to wonder what facts she discovered during the course of Milosevic's trial which not only changed her opinion, but motivated her to write about the truth.
In light of the evidence which is now slowing trickling through about what really happened, one has to wonder how "natural" Milosevic's death actually was.
Whether or not it was foul play is shrouded in mystery. However one thing is blatantly obvious... it was a most convenient death indeed.
Here is another link to an article by Richard J Aldrich, published in The Guardian, in 2002.
AntwortenLöschenhttp://www.papillonsartpalace.com/clintGon.htm
And this one:
Raymond Bonner, "War Crimes Panel Finds Croat Troops 'Cleansed' the Serbs," New York Times, March 21, 1999, a revealing report that has been ignored in the relentless propaganda campaign against the Serbs.
Thankyou Mila
AntwortenLöschen... and then there's this guy... Jovica Stanisic
http://geopolitics.multiply.com/links/item/55/Serb_Death_Squad_Organiser_Was_Top_Belgrade_CIA_agent
Unfortunately I can't access the link.
AntwortenLöschen(Guess I should rejoin the group, huh? *grin*)
Oh sorry.... that wasn't the intent.
AntwortenLöschenJovica Stanisic - Milosevic's 'spymaster'. Allegedly. Nickname 'The Scorpion'. He was CIA
I have the wonderful documentary
AntwortenLöschen"Srebrenica: A Cry
From the Grave"
...broadcast by the BBC and WGBH, Boston, which then
mysteriously "disappeared" from the shelves.
I offer it to anyone for the cost
of mailing
Yes, just mailing! And yes, just for asking.
After reading the introductory paragraphs, I could not read the rest.Another
case of disinformation by presenting selective facts to paint a
distorted picture.An attempt to "frame" the Balkan tragedy as if it is
just Kosovo in that horrible conflict.
Kosovo was the tail end of the story of the espoused Serbian
"supremacy" .
The Ethnic Cleansing was the policy of the Serbian leadership, spoken
verbatim by the horses' mouth and encouraged by the European Christian
accomplices.
Karadjic, Mladic and Milosevic, who were (and still are) the biggest
shame upon European self-proclaimed civilization, and the European
Christianity for those horrible times.
The Church (Vatican Catholic, Serbian Orthodox and the Greek Orthodox
Churches) was an accomplice to atrocities there, hoping to "eradicate"
the Muslim remnants of the terrible(!) Turks.
European "leaders" were accomplices to those crimes,
including, but not limited to...
the UN (Boutros Boutros-Ghali, the then UN Sec Gen),
General Bernard Janvier of France in charge of the UNPROFOR (Google
it).
Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 3-9 October 1996
Should Janvier be Held Accountable for the Events at Srebrenica ?
Jacques Julliard
The report that aired on "Envoye Special" (Special Correspondent, a news program
on France 2) last week clearly established that he was responsible for allowing
the massacre of thousands of thousands of inhabitants of Srebrenica to take
place.,
...and Colonel Thomas Karremans of Netherlands, who has dishonored
what a soldier's honor is all about. So much so, that the much more honorable
Dutch people forced the resignation of their government, because of
that shame cast upon them by Karremans.
nopigeonhole :You SHOULD know better then
posting such crap.
My apologies for the strong words I am compelled to use:
You either wanted to stir the pot to see what surfaces, or you are an impostor.
I'm sorry this post contradicts what you'd like to believe Gurcanaral. It also, rather unfortunately, reveals the exact type of arrogance on your behalf which lead me to leave the group in the first place.
AntwortenLöschenYou seem extremely reluctant to accept any opinion which differs from yours. I think I put it down to arrogance once.
Calling the evidence of the Chief Prosecutor of two United Nations international criminal law tribunals, who by the way acted with complete impartiality throughout the trial, "crap" is more than arrogant... it's living in denial.
As for the term "ethnic cleansing", which was a media spin in any case, it is completely erroneous to start with. The true "ethnicity" of the people which make up the Balkans is a mute point even to anthropologists who have spent years sourcing archaeological evidence. It's also one which has been been further blurred by centuries of inter-marriage and mass conversions of Serbs to Islam during their 500 years as slaves of the Ottoman Empire... or have we forgotten that little "inconvenient" piece of history?
If we are to use a term at all, it should be "religious expatriation" NOT ethnic cleansing... but the ignorance of most people regarding the history of the Balkans makes it easy for such terms to be bandied around by "supposedly" educated people who should know better.
The "evidence" you cite is unfortunately old Gurcanaral. Much has come to light since 1996 when Bernard Janvier first made that statement.
AntwortenLöschenI suggest you become more au courant with the situation, especially the findings of the Professor Cees Wiebes of Amsterdam University who had unrestricted access to not only to Dutch intelligence files, but the secret service headquarters in western capitals, as well as in Bosnia.
The report was filed in 2002 and brings to light some rather disturbing facts... none of which ,unfortunately, favour the Islamists.
... but, perhaps, you'll also dismiss Professor Cees Wierbes findings as "crap".
AntwortenLöschenLet me just ask one thing of you Gurcanal: Do some of that "research" you pride yourself on being so good at to source recent findings about what actually happened in the ex-Yugoslavia.
I'd also like you to do a little reading on the situation in Kosovo as it stands right now. Things like the continued and constant persecution of the Serbs. Things like the criminal thugs who now "run" Kosovo. Things like who actually gained most from the dissolution of a sovereign country.
You may find... surprise, surprise... that your beloved Islamofascists aren't that "innocent" after all. You, of all people, should know that when money's at stake... big money at that... guilt and innocence are very plastic terms indeed.
teach me
AntwortenLöschenNeither stirring nor an impostor, G. Just thought I'd found a nugget worthy of posting here, very much the kind of debate we wnat here... so I built a post around it. Looks like a topic you feel strongly about.
AntwortenLöschenDoes definitely look as if Ms. Del Ponte was bringing things to light that were making people-in-high-places very uncomfortable, so she was hushed away to Argentina. Standard practice. Hey, I need to do plenty of reading on this... but my feeling is that Mila's words ring true.
AntwortenLöschenAntiwar.com exposed NATO media lies in Kosovo very thoroughly, in great detail. Let me know if you want me to post links to some articles, especially to those by Nebosja Malic.
AntwortenLöschenIs it?
AntwortenLöschenHave you forgotten that the whole "mess" started because of Milosevic's speech at Kosovo Field in 1989? Isn't this the reason cited for the charge made against Milosevic, that he preached racial or ethnic hate?
If you look at transcripts of the speech you'll see that all Milosevic was intent on doing was keeping a unified Yugoslavia, much as Tito had done... and I quote from his speech as translated by the National Technical Information Service of the US Department of Commerce (link provided at end of comment):
Yugoslavia is a multinational community and it can survive only under the conditions of full equality for all nations that live in it.
Do these sound like the words of a man who was intent on "ethnic cleansing"?
The problems arose because, like the Irish and the Basques, these regions in the Balkans wanted autonomy based on religious lines. Milosevic was intent on keeping his country together. Unfortunately, there were too many foreign interests which would have benefited from the dissolution of that country and the demonisation of the Serbs was the only way to ensure it happened.
So, again, I have to disagree with you. Kosovo wasn't just the "tail" of the whole story... it was, as anyone who has followed the conflict from the start will tell you, the beginning.
I'm familiar with one article by Malic Behind the "Srebrenica" Atrocity Video.
AntwortenLöschenIt's the only one I've read. If you have links to other articles I'd be happy for you to either post them here or send them to me via pm Bill.
Cheers.
Nothing "clever" about it. It simply states the truth which you actually admit to further down in your comment when you state... and I quote you: Were there mass graves found in Kosovo? Probably not.
AntwortenLöschenIn fact, there weren't any mass graves.
You also seem to very conveniently forget that it was this very lie about the supposed cruel "extermination" of "thousands" of Kosovars which lead to the 78 day, 24/7, bomb-fest against the Serbs.
A lie indeed... because as the record shows, there were NO mass killing fields. It was an excuse to bomb Serbia into submission.
A bombing which:
1) Targeted predominantly undefended civilian targets.
2) Deployed more than 20,000 tons of explosive (including cluster bombs and 10 tons of radio-active depleted uranium)
3) Resulted in the complete destruction of 200 towns and cities, killing over a thousand civilians, causing long term environmental damage and an estimated 250 billion dollars of damage to the country’s civilian infrastructure.
... and you know what the real irony is Gurcanaral? Serbia... yes, that heinous monstrous country... is having to deal with an influx of Muslims from Kosovo who are leaving that country in droves. Funny how that worked out huh? Maybe they forgot to read Western news reports about what animals Serbs are.
lvlila wrote today at 7:36 AM
AntwortenLöschen"Yugoslavia is a multinational community and it can survive only under the conditions of full equality for all nations that live in it.
Do these sound like the words of a man who was intent on "ethnic cleansing"?
The problems arose because, like the Irish and the Basques, these regions in the Balkans wanted autonomy based on religious lines. Milosevic was intent on keeping his country together. Unfortunately, there were too many foreign interests which would have benefited from the dissolution of that country and the demonisation of the Serbs was the only way to ensure it happened."
From this I take it that Milosevic recognised that Yugoslavia was made up of different nations (he said it himself), some of whom sought autonomy. Did they/do they not have that right?
The Irish certainly didn't want autonomy based on religious lines. The founders of Republicanism in Ireland were Protestant.
I'm also puzzled as to what foreign interests have benefited from the dissolution of that country (made up of more than one nation).
Where lies the truth in this matter? Well I can only recognise that many will construct a truth that they find acceptable and comfortable and source material that will exclusively back that sought after truth. That, unfortunately, comes from sources seeking the same comfortable truth.
Ahmadinejad denies the holocaust. Would he seek the opinions of those that survived it? No I don't think so. Truth can be an uncomfortable thing to carry and denial is often the lighter load.
On this I support Gurcanaral.
Wow... most informative thread I've seen in a while. Thanks.
AntwortenLöschenBill - yes, please drop anything you've got in here, more the merrier.
Gurcan - replying to you, I've been thinking about all day, because I logged in this morning and didn't have time, so...
Mila - I have a small question about your original quote?
AntwortenLöschenYou said FBI. What were they doing looking for graves? Thought they were just domestic US affairs, while CIA was for the international stuff?
My bias?
AntwortenLöschenBelieve it, or not, I don't have one. My father, a Serb, came from a wealthy "bourgeois" family... they where involved in import/export right up until WWII. Under communism they had most of their wealth and property confiscated... as was their business, which then became "state owned". My grandfather had been killed by the Nazis so my grandmother left communism and went to live in Germany were my father grew up.
If I had a bias based on personal issues... it would surely NOT be for Milosevic.
I'm half Serb, as you know. My interest in Yugoslavia was minimal until war broke out in the 1990's. At that time, much was being said about the Serbs which contradicted my knowledge of them as people. I knew my grandfather had fought against the Nazis and that my grandparents had been staunch royalists... loyal to the King. I needed to know more and I started to read... I started to ask questions... I started to research into the history.
I don't consider myself a Serb, or an Italian, or a Brazilian... even though that is my country of birth. I've travelled extensively and have never really considered myself as anything other than a citizen of the world. I don't "owe" allegiance to any particular country.
My "bias", if there is one, is against lies and deception. I know politicians lie. We're all well aware of the fact that Bush lied about WMD. I know the media lies. We're all aware of how complicit the media was in helping Bush disseminate those lies.
I have nothing against Islam. As you know, I'm very pro-Palestine.
My "bias" is for the truth. For justice. For transparency.
I have no doubt that the Serbs weren't completely blameless in that war. I'm not naive enough to believe that war doesn't create monsters. But I'm also not naive enough to consider that they acted alone. I'm also not naive enough to think that "ethnic cleansing" was the real reason for the war.
Politics is a dirty business, I'm just trying to see through the muddied waters. You know me well enough to know that it's injustice which makes my bile bubble. If that makes me biased... I can live with that. *grin*
Thank you Mila for this description and explanation. It matches completely to my own memory how things happened. I had been in Yugoslavia several times and I know that parts of it were as developed as any European country, others were rural. What I didn't understand at that time were the ethnic-religious aversions. This was something that could be instrumentalized easily by any leader and this was one of the tools to divide Yugoslavia.
AntwortenLöschenI remember at the time when the Warsaw Pact imploded in Europe were two ideas for the Balkan, either to have a strong Yugoslavia as a guarantor for stability in this region or a weak Balkan with many fragmented nations which allows other nations to act there ad libitum. And I remember well the improperly haste of the EU to acknowledge Croatia and Slowenia, when they declared their independence.
This is just my own memory as an interested contemporary witness.
Just an article in Der Spiegel-online today: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,652292,00.html Indicted War Criminal Ratko Mladic Enjoying Leisurely Retirement
AntwortenLöschenlol...
AntwortenLöschenAccusing Serbs of killing Roma is like accusing them of exterminating Jews. Both the Roma and Jews have always been historically protected by the Serbs against persecution by the Muslims and the Croats.
I suggest you read some Balkan history... WWII will suffice. Try googling Jasenovac for a start.
I also assume you are completely ignorant of the fact that Israel was supplying arms to the Serbs during the last Balkan civil war.
As I said... a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and can lead to one being very easily manipulated.
The BBC documentary recommended by Gurcan -
AntwortenLöschenSrebrenica: A Cry From The Grave
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9045158223206269582#
I shall also amend the title of this thread, taking the point that Kosovo was only the tail end of the conflict
AntwortenLöschenBy all means, it's your thread and you can change it if you believe what G says.
AntwortenLöschenThis, unfortunately, simply isn't true. The entire "situation" began in Kosovo... and Milosevic's speech at Kosovo Field in 1989 is the reason cited for the charge made against Milosevic and the reason why Croatia and Slovenia declared independence. Anyone with basic knowledge of the conflict knows that.
Seems, however, that G is being taken as the "authority" on all things Balkan. lol So be it. If you're going to ignore facts in favour of the hearsay of G.... then I'm out of this thread. Perhaps it's what G wanted in the first place.
That documentary is unfortunately dated.
AntwortenLöschenFacts which became available later showed that unidentified bodies were being erroneously "claimed" to be Muslims.
This is why the FBI and international "objective" teams were called to deal with the "mass graves" in Kosovo.... the ICT wasn't gong to risk a similar fuck-up which wouldn't stand up in court.
The links you requested regarding FBI involved are provided in my response to blondino.
Cheers. I'm out.
You have such an attitude.
AntwortenLöschenI already said where my thinking is - unemotional, down the middle, looking at all sides and making my own mind up once I have enough data. What part of that don't people sometimes get? I find it cringeworthy and immature when people go 'I don't like this game anymore, you're not on my side, so I'm not playing', or as Astra did this week on the Blog Award thing, 'I'm not playing so I'm not letting you play with my toys either'.
I wish people would grow up and try to adopt the policy of not letting emotion enter debate that's already plenty deep enough. Thats all. There will probably be some heated retort to this, but you all know I'm right.
( said to Mila )
AntwortenLöschenyes she does nasty which is why many wants to discuss with her .. and as I said I do not pretend to know but am willing to read and after learn but not be ridiculed by the playground bully .
Not sure why certain people think they are the experts on all things & seem incapable of being civil , 0r admit they do not have all the answers .
BALKAN WITNESS
AntwortenLöschenArticles on the Kosovo Conflict:
Deniers of Serbia's War Crimes
Last modified September 19, 2009
It is no surprise that the regime of Slobodan Milosevic and its propagandists sought to deny or justify its war crimes against the peoples of Kosovo and Bosnia. It is shameful, however, that various Western commentators who claim to be progressives have repeated these lies and justifications - even after many of them have been disproved. In this absurd spectacle they rationalize the destruction of villages and populations thought to harbor “terrorists” – the very actions that the movements against the wars in Vietnam and Iraq have so vigorously opposed.
In this section we examine the misrepresentations of some of these commentators.
http://www.glypx.com/BalkanWitness/Articles-deniers.htm
I think I'll be back on this later. I'm neither pro-Serb or pro-Kosovar or anything but I've been watching this unfold since the early nineties and I have some views which would probably not be acceptable to most respondents on this thread. Expect Mila, who is much more sinned against than sinning.
AntwortenLöschenThat was an unfair crack, Jan. Anyone has a right to a view,and if she is passionate about that she has every right to express what she thinks. At least she stays on topic unlike trolls whom we both know.
AntwortenLöschenI have no problem with people having a view ... having a nasty attititde and belittling others - I do have .
AntwortenLöschene.g.
I'm sorry this post contradicts what you'd like to believe Gurcanaral. It also, rather unfortunately, reveals the exact type of arrogance on your behalf which lead me to leave the group in the first place.You seem extremely reluctant to accept any opinion which differs from yours. I think I put it down to arrogance once
that fairer than my crack ?
and as for passionate , my sons Grandfather was a Muslim from Yugoslavis who emigrated to Turkey - we still have relatives there & people who lived there ( intellectuals ) are they all wrong & ingnorant to tell me this cleasning happened ?
AntwortenLöschenyes wise words Pidgeon
Oh yes, one more thing, in which I might just be mistaken. Wasn't there a famous photo of "a starved victim of the Serbs", who turned out to have been a tuberculosis victim who was deliberately positioned for the cameras to have maximum effect?
AntwortenLöschenI didn't see Mila belittle anyone, frankly. Could you point out for me where she has?
AntwortenLöschenAnd what, exactly, is a "nasty attitude"?
As i think a study of facts would tell you, cleansing happened on all sides.
AntwortenLöschenYou know, when a discussion gets into personalities and so on (please don't make me elaborate on this because it may end in someone feeling hurt) I know that something's going badly wrong.
AntwortenLöschenAny discussion that remains civil is a discussion. Otherwise it's a quarrel.
well this was the first post I find belittling and gave you the example which you did not comment on.
AntwortenLöschenBoth myself & Pidgeon expressed we had open minds in this debate.
I dont see either sides of the war as innocent but a very complex one & I am reading more ( dont pretend to know the answers )
Nebosja Malic looked at some of his stuff .
Discredited genocide denier and an amateur ‘historian,’ Nebojsa Malic (photo), is back to his old tricks again. As a long-time apologist for Serb(ian) war crimes, Malic acts as a parrot for shameless Belgrade propaganda.
Malic does not have any PhD qualification in history, He has never held an academic post, published his work in an academic journal, or even visited an archive. For the purpose of self-promotion, he alleges that he “had exposure to diplomatic and media affairs in Sarajevo,” but our sources in Sarajevo could not confirm his so called “exposure” to anything except numerous racist web sites that enjoy republishing his propaganda.
or Serb Darling in the Press ? not decided on that one
Thank you Bill. Again you found good clear words I couldn't agree more.
AntwortenLöschenDiscredited by whom?
AntwortenLöschenWhen his information happens to coincide with what Carla Del Ponte discovered, then maybe... just maybe... he may have a point.
As for your noble gesture in coming to G's defense by spuriously claiming my "nasty" attitude, I'll like to remind you this clearly is none of your business.
My "attitude" has bearing on a situation to which you are not privy.
Perhaps I could "respectfully" suggest that in future you reserve your "opinions" regarding my so-called "attitude" to my direct comments to you. Any comment I make to a third party is really none of your concern.
The part when you decide to change the title of the post to suit an unsubstantiated and completely erroneous claim that Kosovo was merely the "tail end" of the conflict.
AntwortenLöschenI had entered into this discussion hoping to have an enlightening debate and throw some light on alternative information which has come to light in recent years.
What I got was:
1. People citing outdated information which was debunked in 2002 and having the audacity to present it as "evidence".
2. None of the pertinent points I made were debated in any fashion which comes close to being intelligent.
3. Proof that an enlightened debate was impossible. When someone who claims to be knowledgeable on the Balkan crisis can come out with the frightfully ignorant claim that Kosovo was only the "tail end" of the conflict and not the REASON... then I know I'm dealing and debating with people who are completely and utterly clueless. Not only that... they actually have the gall to presume they're right! *grin*
4. Some silly upstart claiming I have a "nasty" attitude because of something I said to a third party. If G took umbrage at my comment I'm sure he's big enough and ugly enough to deal with that himself.
You know me well enough to know I have a healthy ego. I'm educated (yes, I have one of those damned PhD's) and I don't happen to suffer fools. In fact, I find ignorance... particularly "informed" ignorance... something which is not to be tolerated.
When I read something like this, I immediately remember that old philosophy term "poisoning the well". It means you start off with a slander against your opponent, with no data to prove your claim, but hoping that anything that person says is then not trusted by the listener. Such as "My opponent is a habitual liar, as we all know." Do we?
AntwortenLöschenI don't know where you got that bit about Malic from, Jan, but obviously whoever wrote those lines wasn't overeager to prove Malic was "discredited". The extreme bias of the writer of those lines is so clear that I would be inclined to distrust anything he or she says on sight without even trying to research his/her claims on Malic.
Thankyou for today's additions to this, Bill. That was a bit special ;)
AntwortenLöschenI reflect that you, Mila, Gurcan and Jan are all my friends. I say that mainly for the outsider reading this.
I would like to clarify that I originally said (Saturday morning, English time) that Mila has 'such an attitude'. This was reactive of me, and she and I know each other well enough for her not to take that personally. I also recently told her in private that I find her 'argumentative'. I never used the word 'nasty'.
I remain open minded (easy when your mind is relatively empty) and I still want to hear all sides. But I have to admit I'm leaning in favour of Mila's version of events.
Right now, I think the best thing that can happen here is we hear from Gurcan...
From what I can pick up on this thread... not more
AntwortenLöschenFBI (?) did not find mass graves.
Is this because there were none or because they were well hidden?
Mila - I will look into your opinion that Kosovo was more than the tail end. Personally.
AntwortenLöschenI'm being educated here... !!
Milosevic made a significant speech, it was said? That can't be hard to find on video...
AntwortenLöschenhttp://www.antiwar.com/spectator/spec334.html
AntwortenLöschenSerious doubt has also been cast on some of the most famous atrocity stories. Remember the refrigerator truck whose discovery in the Danube in 1999, full of bodies, was gleefully reported as Milosevic was transferred to The Hague in June 2001? The truck had allegedly been retrieved from the river and then driven to the outskirts of Belgrade, where its contents were interred in a mass grave. But cross-examination showed that there is no proof that the bodies exhumed were the ones in the truck, nor that any of them came from Kosovo. Instead, it is quite possible that the Batajnica mass grave dated from the second world war, while the refrigerator truck may have contained Kurds being smuggled to Western Europe, the victims of a grisly traffic accident. The realisation is now dawning that lies were peddled to justify the Kosovo war just as earnestly as they were to justify the attack on Iraq.
http://www.helsinki.org.yu/hcharter_t16a02.html
AntwortenLöschen"Six strategic Objectives of the Serbian people", -published on 12 May 1992 in the Republika Srpska's Official Gazette-, are the clearest manifestations that a plan existed to remove non-Serbs from power in all targeted areas and to essentially remove non-Serbs physically from targeted parts of Bosnia regardless of whether they formed the ethnic majority or not. Taken in the context of Karadzic's and others' increasing references to the annihilation of Muslims in Bosnia, and what followed, these documents may be seen as vehicles employed by the Bosnian Serb leadership to implement a genocidal plan. The first strategic goal -'separating the Serbian people from the other two ethnic communities"- is articulated by Karadzic in the 16th Assembly Session. "We cannot be in that unified state. We well know, where fundamentalism arrives, you cannot live any more. There's no tolerance. Serbs and Croats together by birth rate cannot control the intrusion of Islam in Europe, for in 5-6 years in a unified Bosnia, the Muslims would be over 51%. .This conflict was incited so that the Muslims would not exist"
On 12 October 1991, Karadzic had a lengthy discussion with Gojko Djogo. During the conversation, Karadzic repeated five times that the Muslims will disappear in case of war. Let me quote him partially: "They do not understand that there would be bloodshed and that the Muslim people would be exterminated. The deprived Muslims, who do not know where he (Izetbegovic) is leading, to what he is leading the Muslims, would disappear" or "They will disappear, that people will disappear from the face of the Earth"
On 13 October 1991, Karadzic speaks with Momcilo Mandic : "In just a couple of days, Sarajevo will be gone and there will be five hundred thousand dead, in one month Muslims will be annihilated in Bosnia and Herzegovina".
On 15 October 1991, Karadzic forecasts extermination of the Muslims in case of war in Bosnia. In a conversation with Miodrag Davidovic and Luka Karadzic, Radovan Karadzic says: "In the first place no one of their leadership would stay alive, in three, four hours they'd all be killed. They wouldn't have a chance to survive at all".
On the same day, in his famous televised speech in the Bosnian Assembly, -a public speech-, Karadzic says once again: "This is the road that you want Bosnia and Herzegovina to take, the same highway of hell and suffering that Slovenia and Croatia went through. Don't think you won't take Bosnia and Herzegovina to hell and Muslim people in possible extinction."
This article is purely hearsay Mike. It takes the information and places it within the "context" of its own agenda.
AntwortenLöschenAs you will see from the UN News Centre dated September this year, genocide was never proved.
In September 2006, Mr. (Momcilo) Krajišnik was found by the ICTY to have participated in a joint criminal enterprise – which included former Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadžic – that sought to ethnically re-compose the territories under the Bosnian Serb Republic’s control by slashing the proportion of non-Serbs through crimes.
The convictions of Mr. (Momcilo) Krajišnik for the deportation, forcible transfer and persecution of Bosnian Muslims and Croat civilians, including women, children and the elderly, between 1992 and 1995 were upheld by the ICTY on appeal in March this year. However, findings of guilty for murder, extermination and persecution were overturned.
The entire UN report is here:
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=31976&Cr=icty&Cr1
No problem. I'm happy to take your word for that, read and dig, and IF I discover otherwise, I will. Until then, I'm finding your version of events the more likely to be true. But...
AntwortenLöschenThat Helsinki article was listed as a source/reference on Wikipedia, when I looked up 'Bosnia War' (I think)... maybe you or someone like you needs to go over there and dispute the Wiki entry? As it is, it's a general standard that many people take as Gospel, a starting point in research. I'm only interested in the truth, but then comes another question... once you have the truth, how to [safely] distribute it into public awareness?
Gurcan - if and when you do finally come back here and read this thread.... I'm disappointed you closed up like that
AntwortenLöschenMike, as you may already know, I work in academia. The policy at our University... and every University in Australia for that matter... is that Wiki is not a reliable source.
AntwortenLöschenAll first year students have it drummed into them that citing Wiki as a primary source will deem that essay/paper an automatic fail.
Attempts have been made on various occasions to correct misinformation or outdated material by people far more knowledgeable than myself. I'll leave it up to those to tackle that quest.
As you've probably noted, people will believe what they choose to believe. It's a complex issue. One that really needs to be looked at from a historical perspective. What happened in the ex-Yugoslavia didn't happen in isolation... no matter how the media, Clinton, Blair or Albright chose to colour it.
Old borders are being redrawn along the ancient Ottoman/Austo-Hungarian lines... and, as usual, the Serbs are caught in the middle trying hard to maintain their independence from their Imperialist oppressors.
... but the battle is lost. For the Serbs it's history repeating itself. The greatest tragedy is that I fear the rest of Europe will eventually pay the price. Mark my words. There's more at play... and more at stake... here than politicians will have us believe. Sounds like a "tin-foil hat" conspiracy theory? I wish. Unfortunately, one only has to look at history to realise how the Balkans have been historically manipulated to serve the interests of two opposing factions... East and West.
My only regret is that too many innocent people have suffered... on ALL sides. No situation is either black or white... which is what a few of the commentators on this thread would like to believe. The reality is far murkier and far more dirty.
It's easy to blame the Serbs and sweep the whole mess under the carpet. Unfortunately, this mess will fester and grow. When it finally resurfaces, it will include far more than just the Balkans. Trust me. This wasn't the end... it's merely the beginning. Need I remind you that the trigger to both World Wars was the Balkans. No coincidence that. No coincidence at all.
I know, that's why I used the source material and not Wiki itself
AntwortenLöschenAs for the rest... I've believed for a long time I'll see WW3
I wasn't aware of it... thanks. It will be interesting on so many levels.
AntwortenLöschenI still find it ironic that she, of all people, would have had her first book so thoroughly censored. We live in countries which are supposedly "democratic" and afford us freedom of speech... yet here we have a respected Hague Judge (one we trusted with an impartial sentencing of someone who was labeled the greatest war criminal since Hitler) banned from disclosing information based on that case.
If nothing else it proved to me that for whatever reasons, the world wasn't (and still isn't) allowed to know the truth. Or at least parts of it which don't serve a greater agenda.
The banning of Del Ponte's book; the total silence surrounding the evidence brought to light by J. Israel's video of the real nature of the "concentration camps" in Bosnia; the cone of silence surrounding the real reason for Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo: All these things have a stench about them which sickens me.
We are by small and steady increments losing our freedoms. Remember how "outraged" the West was at Rushdie's book being banned in Muslim countries? We thought it so damn despotic and against our basic freedoms. No outrage about Del Ponte's book. Surely in a region which prides itself on the rights of the individual she would have been allowed to publish her book... and we, the people, the right to make of it what we will.
LOL... lies and damn hypocrisy. I think that's what I object to most of all. It's this veneer of righteousness we in the West have about upholding such democratic principles, when in fact we're every bit as controlled by our governments via their media generated propaganda.
One only has to look at the circus currently being played out by the media in the USA to see how low the "profession" of corporate journalism has fallen. Damn whores... the lot of them. *grin*