In the wake of the Trayvon Martin shooting and associated race-relation issues in the US in recent weeks, I found this in today's press. Would prefer we don't go over the details of the Zimmerman-Martin case here on this thread, it's been done to death already and I regard it as a bit of domestic US issue... as much as you in Idaho, New York or Arizona would be interested in events in Kathmandu, Lisbon or Johannesburg.
I am very curious though, about why it happens so often, there...
As yet another student opens fire on his former classmates, Jeremy Laurance asks if such atrocities share an underlying cause
WEDNESDAY 04 APRIL 2012
If One L Goh, the 43-year-old Korean who allegedly shot and killed seven people at a private Christian college, Oikos University, in Oakland California on Monday, was seeking notoriety, it did not last long. By lunchtime yesterday the story had already disappeared from the front page of the BBC news website. School shootings are so common in the US that we have become almost inured to them.
What made him do it? And why should the US in particular be prone to such attacks? They are far more frequent in America than elsewhere in the world (though appalling atrocities have occurred in Russia, Israel and a number of European countries).
According to Oakland Police Chief Howard Jordan, Goh was "upset with the administration at the school" where he had been a student, until he was expelled a few months ago.
He complained that students had "mistreated him, disrespected him, and things of that nature", Mr Jordan said. "He was having, we believe, some behavioural problems at the school and was asked to leave several months ago."
In addition to his troubles at school, Goh owed thousands of dollars in tax and recently suffered two bereavements, including the death of his mother.
Most perpetrators of school massacres had struggled to cope with personal failure or significant losses prior to the attack, research shows. Many had attempted suicide or behaved in other ways that looked like a cry for help.
Yet personal failure and loss are universal experiences. There are many other potential factors – bullying and revenge, mental illness, exposure to violent films and video games, drugs, access to guns. Which of these account for the higher incidence of attacks in the richest country in the world?
After the infamous Columbine shootings in 1999, when Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold killed 12 students and a teacher, the US Secret Service and the US Department of Education established an inquiry that examined 37 similar shootings between 1974 and 2000.
It concluded there were common threads. Shootings were rarely sudden, impulsive acts – in most cases other people knew about the attacker's plans.
Although there was no accurate "profile" of an attacker – attempts to predict which individuals will commit such acts are doomed to fail – most behaved in ways that indicated they needed help. Many felt bullied or persecuted and there were often signs that they were planning for an attack.
The result was the Safe School Initiative, which aimed to help university staff and police share information about possible threats and develop strategies to prevent potential attacks.
In a recent article, "Why does America lead the world in school shootings?", Frank Ochberg, Professor of psychiatry at Michigan State University observed: "Students do not become mass killers overnight. They nurse their fantasies and they leak evidence. Insults, threats and plans are posted on websites. Classmates often know when a student is ready to strike back. Parents hear rumblings and have accurate gut sensations."
New programmes to share information led to several plots being nipped in the bud, he said. Other countries adopted similar programmes. Yet America is still the one where these tragedies happen most.
There is no evidence, Professor Ochberg says, that, compared to other nations, America has "more bullies, more bullying, more victimisation, and more victims who are ticking time bombs, hatching plots of lethal vengeance".
Mental illness has been a feature in some killings. People with mental illness are very rarely violent – they are far more likely to be the victims of violence. But occasionally they can become a danger to others.
"We do not have a sophisticated system of care and protection," Professor Ochberg says. Community care for the mentally ill was "never fully funded" and "leaves much to be desired". But, he adds, America in this regard is "really no worse than other nations".
Violence is ever present – on TV screens, in video games and movies – and many commentators have suggested this can lead to copycat behaviour and desensitisation to its effects. Others counter that it acts as catharsis, defusing potential violent acts.
Professor Ochberg notes that violent role models have a long history and are not limited to America. "Northern Ireland, the Balkans, the children's armies of Africa, the terrorist camps of the Middle East, have their violent role models. Machismo is not an American word, nor is hooligan."
What is left? One factor that, for many, defines America is access to guns. If kids could not bring guns to school, we wouldn't have Columbine or Virginia Tech (where 32 people were slaughtered by 23-year-old student Cho Seung-hui in 2007). Or, now, Oakland, Professor Ochberg might have added.
"The reason we have an American school shooting problem that exceeds other nations has to do with access to loaded weapons by kids who should not have that access. Any serious attempt to prevent school shooting will have to attack the problem," he said.
It is not a view likely to win wide support, especially in states with a powerful gun heritage. Some commentators have argued that the problem has less to do with guns and more to do with civil liberties.
Speaking after the massacre at Virginia Tech in 2007, Richard Arum, Professor of sociology and education at New York University, remarked that Americans enjoy a right to privacy, a right to free speech and a right to due process that is extended to students in schools and colleges, including individuals who are mentally impaired.
"Unfortunately, these freedoms make it very difficult for schools to respond to individual troubled youth. Here was a case of a college student [Cho Seung-hui] who was very deeply troubled, but the school, because it was concerned about the youth's individual rights, had a very difficult time responding in common sense ways to the needs he'd expressed."
Challenged as to whether America's gun culture was to blame, Professor Arum was unapologetic: "Guns have been widely available in our society for a long time, and we didn't have this history of rampage school shootings."
He agreed, however, that when an individual with a history of mental illness was able to walk into a store and purchase a weapon, as Cho Seung-hui did, matters had got out of hand.
"It would be hard to argue that this makes any rational sense at all," he said.
Lethal lessons: Past killings
1974: December 30 New York, Olean, Olean High School – three killed
1986: December 4 Montana, Lewistown, Fergus High School – one killed
1987: March 2 Missouri, DeKalb, DeKalb High School – two killed
1992: May 1 California, Olivehurst, Lindhurst High School – four killed
1992: December 14 Massachusetts, Great Barrington, Bard College – two killed
1994: May 26 Kentucky, Union, Ryle High School – four killed
1994: October 12 North Carolina, Greensboro, Grimsley High School – one killed
1996: February 2 Washington, Moses Lake, Frontier Junior High School – three killed
1997: February 19 Alaska, Bethel, Bethel Regional High School – two killed
1997: October 1 Mississippi, Pearl, Pearl High School – three killed
1997: December 1 Kentucky, Paducah, Heath High School – three killed
1998: March 24 Arkansas, Jonesboro, Westside Middle School – five killed
1999: April 20 Colorado, Jefferson County, Littleton, Columbine High School – 15 killed
2005: March 21 Minnesota, Red Lake Native American Reservation, Red Lake High School – 10 killed
2007: April 16 Virginia, Blacksburg, Virginia Tech – 33 killed
2008: February 14 Illinois, DeKalb, Northern Illinois University – six killed
RemixedP: Question - Canada has the same guns, same kind of laws. Less population density maybe. But they're right next door, and basically another version of the same society, right? So why is it like this in the United States, but not Canada?
Other News, various:
I have no idea. I will say that shooting have happened all throughout American history. It's just that now we have CNN, FOX, MSNBC and other 24/7 cable outlets to give us immediate and never ending coverage. So it seems like it's a huge f'ing problem because it's on your TV 24/7 non stop.
AntwortenLöschen25 years ago the public would need to pick up a newspaper and take the time to read about it - if it was in the newspaper!
So the question I submit is this; is there an increase in shootings or an increase in media coverage making it look there is an increase in shootings.
I contend it's the latter.
I'd have to say it is getting worse Randy. I don't recall having access to a 9mm 30 bullets in clip semi-automatic pistol back in the 1970's. While we have always had a violent culture, the means to wipe out a whole classroom wasn't there before, and frankly most fights were not lethal. The attitude hasn't changed, the weaponry sure has.
AntwortenLöschenAnd you may be right. I am big into statistics. We have 320 Million people in this country. Divide these shootings into that and exactly how big of a problem do we have?
AntwortenLöschenNot very big.
Statistic wise, I haven't the foggiest what those come to. However we are the ones that are spending tens of billions of dollars to make sure commercial flight is safer than going to school. Strange that, don't you think?
AntwortenLöschenaccording to schoolshooting.org there have been 376 school shootings in USA since 1992
AntwortenLöschenseems rather a lot ...
The average Kindergartner doesn't bring heat to school though Randy, so comparing that to the full range of grades isn't appropriate. What MIGHT be appropriate is to compare our rate with other countries, and I haven't heard of anyone else having a problem. If a school gets shot up, it isn't a kid doing it.
AntwortenLöschenAh yes. Bad America!
AntwortenLöschenWe have more freedom than other countries and this includes our constitutional right to own guns. I am guessing that Stalin's USSR nor Hitlers Germany had a problem with school shootings.
America has a gun culture not found in other countries. These shootings are tragic but in most cases comes down to someones personal decision to break the law.
ME? I almost always blame the parents.
Randy, there are a lot of places with guns where the kids don't bring them into schools and shoot each other.
AntwortenLöschenhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law
Gun control isn't the issue. Kids killing kids is. Don't try to muddy the debate with red herrings.
You are doing just that? Who says what the "ISSUE" is and it is not?
AntwortenLöschenGun control could very well be the issue....kids killing kids might just be the result of a failure to adequately address this issue.
18.8 shooting a year hang in the balance!
If you look back at the thread, I said that you needed to compare that statistic to other countries, YOU brought up the gun control part
AntwortenLöschen"We have more freedom than other countries and this includes our constitutional right to own guns. I am guessing that Stalin's USSR nor Hitlers Germany had a problem with school shootings."
I responded I wasn't talking about gun control, there are plenty of countries around that have just as loose laws on gun control as we do - if not less. It doesn't matter if it is constitutionally guaranteed or not.
The subject was originally brought up as a culture issue, in fact that article notes that other places have a problem:
(though appalling atrocities have occurred in Russia, Israel and a number of European countries).
The point I made is that in those countries, it isn't kids shooting up kids. It is usually adults, and they are usually politically motivated to commit the crime.
We are about the only place I can think of where kids think it is appropriate to take a gun to school to settle scores with their teachers and classmates.
I haven't a lot to add... I simply don't know, and would like to. Glad to see some opinions being chucked around, gets my grey matter working.
AntwortenLöschenIndeed, have to compare with other countries. As I did, with Canada. By that example, it can't be ACCESS to guns which is the problem... I'm leaning toward thinking it's ATTITUDE toward guns. If you think no more of shooting me than I would of punching you, there you have one seriously violent society... here, it's more knives.
The 'constitutional right' to own a gun, I have always found ridiculous. Guns are for killing. You do not have a right to kill.
The Second Amendment:
AntwortenLöschenA well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.
Basically, it's the right to protect yourself against another person or a tyrannical government if need be.
Killing is not always bad and is sometimes necessary as proved by the historical record.
Militia. I get so tired of that. It's just a twisting of the amendment to allow 30-round automatic clips, like the one that Jared Laughner used to kill six people and injure 13, including Congresswoman Gabby Giffords on Jan 8, 2010. The only reason more people weren't killed on that day was because he had to stop to reload and courageous men tackled him when he did.
AntwortenLöschenLaughner suffers from schizophrenia. I believe (but am not certain) that he bought his gun at a gun show where background checks are not required. Even if he had a background check he would have passed because he was never formally diagnosed with a mental illness.
I believe the combination of undiagnosed mental illness, unfettered access to weaponry and the disturbingly amount of graphic violence that young people are exposed to at ever increasing early ages are the root causes for this epidemic.
I have bipolar disorder and I should never have access to a gun. But if the NRA had it's way, I should be able to purchase automatic weapons with huge amounts of ammo. After all, a well armed militia...
For anyone to think that 18 mass shootings a year is insignificant totally blows my mind. I don't care what you compare it to. ANY mass shooting is one too many.
I was thinking about her, and you, last night at work... thought you might have a few words here... thanks :)
AntwortenLöschenAnd a couple more thoughts from me... how someone can amass the kind of arsenal held by the Branch Davidian compound when they were raided, in a country as affluent and civilised as the USA, is simply disturbing. To get weapons like that here, I'd need a lot of money and friends high in the criminal underworld. I wouldn't even know where to get a simple 9mm pistol on the London black market. What does the average handgun cost, retail, just out of interest?
Secondly, I think this is more of a philosophical issue... albeit in my layman's terms. If Randy and I get into a barfight, and I wrap a snooker cue round his head, I am doing that with the intent of knocking the person out, or hurting them so as to win the fight, and prevent them from harming me. In a culture where it is more likely that someone will just pull a gun and ask questions later, this is where things go awry. I do not think of pulling a gun in the same terms as hitting someone, even with a tool, a snooker cue, a chair, or what. Doing that *could* end up killing someone, sure... but I can say with certainty, if I pull a gun on someone and I'm prepared to use it, I may not intend to kill them, but I am ok with it if I do. This would only happen if there was a threat that they might do the same to me... so yes, always self defence. I'm reminded of Tony Martin, who shot a burglar here and was jailed for it. Not sure if or how the law has changed after that high-profile case (Steve?), but I do believe that if someone enters my house and wants to walk away with this laptop, they deserve a bullet in the ass.
And third, have you seen the movie 'Battle Royale'? Korean. About shooting everyone. Can't help wondering if the guy in this article, and the Virginia Tech shooter, were influenced by that kind of film...?
There's also a good interview on this with Rock singer Marilyn Manson, will see if I can find that...
Also... the kind of kids in London who would take a gun to school and shoot all their classmates if they could, some of whom have been known to, say, stab a headmaster to death... are not teenagers who give a **** about politics, 'second amendments' and such. You saw some of their handiwork on the news last summer. I am of course thinking more of the would-be gangsters, more than the ostracised loner who likes to sit in a darkened room cutting themselves while listening to Tool and Radiohead.
AntwortenLöschenRandy - you mentioned that some states are very protective of their guns. Which, please?
I can't find the interview I'm after (Manson), won't be at all surprised if Youtube have removed it. But here's these:
AntwortenLöschenThat brings up an interesting point. That film is Japanese, and they have pretty much the most violent entertainment anywhere, as welll as some of the lowest violent crime rate on the planet (however when somebody does go nuts there, it is usually pretty spectacular). If violence in art is the cause of America's problem, it ought to be showing up in Japan also. It isn't. Which means it is something else again...
AntwortenLöschenPretty much split conservative - liberal on that one remixed. If you look at a red-blue electoral map of the US, the Red states are more protective of gun rights.
AntwortenLöschenI kinda knew that ;) Just wanted to see if any cons would admit it . Thankye
AntwortenLöschenGreat way not to answer the question there randy.
AntwortenLöschenHe asked which states are protective of their guns and I gave him the top three. How is that not answering the question?
AntwortenLöschenNothing in that article or anything anybody has said with the exception of you has brought up gun control or the lack of it as a reason for the violence in US schools. It has brought up the subject of kids having access to guns, which isn't the same thing as restricting access for adults. It just means adults that have weapons need to be responsible for making sure they are handled and stored properly. I really don't see that as too much to ask, do you?
AntwortenLöschenYou are the one that keeps harping on the issue of constitutional rights to own guns, and that gun control laws do not control violence. They don't. But giving a 13 year old kid access to a semi-automatic weapon with no supervision is just plain nuts.
It`s a mine field, mate. Make of this what you will:
AntwortenLöschen"Anyone can use reasonable force to protect themselves or others, or to carry out an arrest or to prevent crime. You are not expected to make fine judgements over the level of force you use in the heat of the moment. So long as you only do what you honestly and instinctively believe is necessary in the heat of the moment, that would be the strongest evidence of you acting lawfully and in self defence. This is still the case if you use something to hand as a weapon.
As a general rule, the more extreme the circumstances and the fear felt, the more force you can lawfully use in self-defence. "
THANK YOU, Laurie for speaking SANITY!
AntwortenLöschenGetting here late and have been reading comments, WAITING for one that made sense.
You win the prize!
Sadly...
I didn't even know that was a state. And I could have sworn it was in Canada.
AntwortenLöschen
AntwortenLöschengun Deaths per year in USA over 30,000 estimated another 200,000 are injured.
In Switzerland every male is legally required to own a gun yet there is not gun crime ..yet Switzerland has lowest
gun crime rate in the world. no school massacres whatsoever . Guns are ingrained in Swiss culture .
, I still flinch a bit when I see groups of men wandering around Zurich
Hauptbahnhof railway station carrying machine guns and other automatic
weapons, or when some badly-moustached bloke who lives upstairs in
the apartment building hops on a tram with rifle (which one always presumes
is fully loaded), but you get used to it.
interesting nicht wahr ya ?
AntwortenLöschenNon-Americans, try this: Number a sheet of paper down one edge, 1 to 50. Start a stopwatch and jot down each of the 50 states of North America. I would guess North Americans know that too well, learned in school. Would simply be interested to know how quickly you can do it. I tried once, and it took bloody ages! Must have known Vermont was a state at one time, because I got them all in the end. I think I may have had to look up Delaware and a couple of others.
AntwortenLöschenJan - Switzerland do what? Never knew that... is that because they're neutral? Reminded me of the settlements in Occupied Palestine. I believe residents there are also required to be armed. Though, in Israel, I can sorta understand why. But Switzerland?
Swiss Guard do security for the Vatican, don't they?
Switzerland ... have second most guns per capita in the world after USA
AntwortenLöschenSo what went wrong with these kids who went to school tooled up? Who failed them, how? Why does a modern democratic society such as this produce such people? Is it the competitive nature of capitalist culture, the pressure to conform? Access to weapons is surely part of it, but when compared with other nations, we see they do not have this problem... so the shooters are being made to feel a certain way, being alienated, or twisted somehow. That's not unique to the USA, as the article says... but something must be. Perhaps the whole society is so de-sensitized to such violence, it no longer shocks?
AntwortenLöschenIn cases where youngsters commit some dreadful crimes here, I mostly blame irresponsible people unqualified to be parents, also. That's a step toward a solution, definitely, Diio. If one wants to own a gun and have it in the house, they should be more responsible about keeping it the hell away from minors. Would you let your 12 or 13 year old get hold of your car keys, go out and run someone over, or drive your car off a bridge?
Way to do that is harsher sentences for the gun owner. With power comes responsibility. Same on a national level. USA is the world's playground referee, the strongest military. If that ref becomes the bully, it should be answerable to The International Criminal Court. But that's another thread...
Laurie already answered that for the most part...
AntwortenLöschen"I believe the combination of undiagnosed mental illness, unfettered access to weaponry and the disturbingly amount of graphic violence that young people are exposed to at ever increasing early ages are the root causes for this epidemic."
Of course parenting plays a major role as well, but the easy availability of weapons, especially the rapid fire kind, is taking its toll on school campuses in America.
That begs the question of where all the "undiagnosed mental illness" is coming from. And it isn't just the kids, we have a fair number of adults going off the deep end too. Why does that seem to be such an epidemic around here?
AntwortenLöschenIt isn't the guns that are the problem, they are just the most convenient means of acting out the aggression. If they can't shoot it up they'll blow it up.
I also don't think it is violent entertainment. There are places on the planet with worse, and they don't have the random acts of violence to go with it.
I am still not sure how much of a problem this really is. A big part of me thinks that parenting is mostly to blame.
AntwortenLöschenIf your son is dressing in GOTH and is playing Grand Theft Auto all day long you might take notice.
Also, if you have guns in the house, like I do, LOCK THEM UP!
I guess it comes down to "How did the US become a nation of social misfits?"
AntwortenLöschen(and I can hear the Europeans going: "Become? You mean it has ever been anything else?")
While this is about school shootings I think one has to look at mass shootings in the US in general because I think they are indicative of the same problem. There are a lot of work place shootings as well as nightclub shootings and similar mass shootings in the US where the shooter opens fire on a crowd, or go ins and targets co-workers. Although we are starting to see it in other nations as well. Was it New Zealand where a man went into a shopping complex and started shooting people?
AntwortenLöschenFurthermore, one has to separate college and university shootings from grade-school shootings due to the age factor. University shootings would be closer to work-place shootings due to the age factor.
AntwortenLöschenI guess if one looks at it statistically one is more likely to die in a car crash than from being shot by a fellow student or co-worker.
AntwortenLöschenI think it is the mass factor. Look at the time and effort; not to mention the money, put into figuring out what happened when an aeroplane crashes killing 200 people, yet that many will die on the motorways in a day (I pulled that figure out of the air; I don't know how many people die on US motorways each day). Yet, they hardly even look twice at what happened and what could have prevented the motorway deaths because they are spread out.
US Motor vehicle deaths in 2010: 32,885
AntwortenLöschenor 90 per day
You were in the ballpark anyway :P
More like in the car park outside the ballpark.
AntwortenLöschenPerhaps you need universal state-run healthcare? lol
AntwortenLöschenHA HA!!!
AntwortenLöschenWhat, like our care in the community bollox?
AntwortenLöschenI note that you have an opinion about it Steve. I don't, really. But yes, exactly like that, or some kind of medical professional on hand in schools to provide the right kind of counselling and/or a system which recognises the potential danger earlier. Surely if some estranged loser is set to go off the deep end, there must be warning signs leading up to it that a trained psychologist could easily spot?
AntwortenLöschenAnyway, two more movies sprang to mind - two of my own favourites...
Here's a comment from a random friend in US, elsewhere in cyberspace...
AntwortenLöschen" One thing you have to understand about the murder rate in america is it's a bit misleading especially to an outsider. The FBI is the one that officially gather statistics for the whole country gathered from local police reports sent in each year. The FBI's budget, set by congress, is based on how much crime there is in the country.
So it's in their best interest to have high numbers. Now also take into account what the FBI does is count all Suicides as murder in the same category as killing someone else with a gun. That way they can report higher crimes for a higher budget. Yes our murder rate is somewhat higher than a lot of other countries but when you discount suicides it's not NEARLY as high as reported in the media all the time.
That's one of the little tidbits about how screwed up our government system is that doesn't get told much "
Don't know if i believe the suicide rate is that high.
AntwortenLöschenEnough to skew the rate by that much?
I don't know... sounds like a theory from the non-law enforcement side to make it seem not so bad.
Whom to believe...
Sounds vaguely conspiracy theoryist to me, Mike. I don't know what role FBI play in compiling crime stats; I'll google it once I've had a sleep
AntwortenLöschenThe Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program was conceived in 1929 by the
AntwortenLöschenInternational Association of Chiefs of Police to meet a need for reliable,
uniform crime statistics for the nation. In 1930, the FBI was tasked with
collecting, publishing, and archiving those statistics.
Today, several annual statistical publications, such as the comprehensive
Crime in the United States, are produced from data provided by nearly 17,000
law enforcement agencies across the United States
Crime in the United States
Crime in the United States (CIUS) is an annual publication in which the FBI
compiles volume and rate of crime offenses for the nation, the states, and
individual agencies. This report also includes arrest, clearance, and law
enforcement employee data. Use the new online UCR Data Tool to research
crime statistics from as far back as 1960.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr
Cheers Jan. Just skimmed through it and come up with "The UCR Program does not collect data on suicide victims. ". From what I`ve read elsewhere a lot of suicides are recorded as accidental deaths or, in the case of elderly people, natural causes.
AntwortenLöschen"The FBI's budget, set by congress, is based on how much crime there is in the country."
Interestingly, in Jan`s stats, violent crime in the US appears to be dropping.