Do you think abortion should be legal in all cases, legal in most cases, illegal in most cases, or illegal in all cases?
Legal in all cases
Legal in most cases
Illegal in most cases
Illegal in all cases
Unsure
Legal in all cases
4
Legal in most cases
4
Illegal in most cases
1
Illegal in all cases
2
Unsure
0
EVEN IF YOU DON'T FEEL LIKE COMMENTING - PLEASE FEEL FREE TO VOTE!
What could be worse than an unwanted and unloved child?
AntwortenLöschenThat would be horrible. What about not being given the same chance that you got - to live?
AntwortenLöschenWhat about the chance to live but to be beaten to death by your mother's boyfriend, as happened in a very high profile legal case recently in the UK.
AntwortenLöschenThere is no "right" answer to this question.
I agree. It's a very complicated issue that I am torn on. The problem that I see is that the wrong people are having abortions by en large.
AntwortenLöschenThe crunch part in this argument has to be the deadline at which doctors have a reasonable chance of a foetus being self-sustainable. I think the arguements about this range between 21-24 weeks.
AntwortenLöschenAfter this point, you have a feasible person. Up until this point, you have more a collection of growing cells.
Who are the right people?
AntwortenLöschenAnd we wouldn't either if not for the Religious Right wing who seek to control women based more on some "biblical beliefs" that are and should be PERSONAL.
AntwortenLöschenIf you're personally against it, don't do it. Simple as that.
You all in Europe seem better able to grasp that.
We'll catch on... someday.
Well gosh durn it, I don't think this even starts to go far enough. As far as I am concerned as soon as you get the urge you gotta create the baby. Doesn't matter who's fer it or not, we're talking a valuable human being in danger of never being conceived. These pre-conception abortions have got to stop!
AntwortenLöschenIf'n ya feel the need, ya' gotta do the deed. Jesus done said that.
Uh oh...
AntwortenLöschenSounds like Diio's even against masturbation! ;~P
Now ah'm not sayin' Christine O'Donnell was right mind ya' just not sayin' she's wrong neither. Real looker there even if she is a witch.
AntwortenLöschenDiiogenese......
AntwortenLöschenSilly SheepDude ;-)
Interestingly, this is a more restrictive law, in the first 12 weeks, than the Michigan, USA law. Both laws require counseling before the abortion; Michigan's law provides for online information and then 24 hours before the abortion. (It is different in all the 50 states.) As I read this law, Germany requires face-to-face counseling and then a 3 day wait.
AntwortenLöschenSurely abortion as a form of contraception can never be a good thing or even desirable. If you are going out and are grown up enough to have sex with someone then you are grown up enough to use protection... and that is aimed at both males and females.
AntwortenLöschenBut the problem of lack of education is the biggest cause of problems. It is all very well getting schools to tell kids not to have sex, but kids are kids and will do it because it is naughty. Relying on ill-educated parents is no good either as often they too do not have the answers and are too embarrassed to talk of these things to their kids. In a drive to keep kids innocence, the lack of education is just causing ignorance and abortion is just the symptom.
There will always be the sad situations of rape and threats to the mothers health, and I think it would be a harsh dictatorial regime that would not see that and ban abortion in all cases. After all abortions went on all the time when it was illegal before, so all a ban would do is put the mothers at more risk during a back street abortion, and lets face it sometimes extreme pressure is put on to those women to have an abortion to keep the 'honor' of the family.
gregers asked what could be worse than an unwanted child...well... the murder of that unwanted and unloved child. Murder is just plain wrong.
AntwortenLöschenin my book that's far worse...we need to establish that fact once and for all.
I Cr 13:8a
Which is why a moment of "Coming into life" must be set - and why I have also said that such decisions need to be acted upon before this deadline - the time where the foetus is capable of independant existance.
AntwortenLöschensorry gregers... that statement is pure "B S". The only difference scientifically between a fetus that was just conceived and a full grown adult is: nutrition, oxygen, and time! That's it. No difference, scientifically. I'm putting the moral and ethical issues aside.
AntwortenLöschenI Cr 13:8a
I tend to agree with this. Since no one knows when LIFE begins should not we side on the side of LIFE?
AntwortenLöschen3rd Trimester abortions should most definitely be illegal. 2nd Trimester should be very rare. Always show the mother an Ultrasound "This is what we are getting rid of sweetie."
Scientifically... we do know when life begins...at conception. As I said to gregers, the only difference between the just concepted fetus and an adult is nutrition, oxygen, and time. And well i don't even think about the time thing. Basically
AntwortenLöschenjust nutrition and oxygen. The genes are the same between the initial few cells and an adult.
I Cr 13:8a
Of course this is correct. Cell activity is immediate. The question becomes when does that cell activity become a person. I say, since no one knows for sure, immediately.
AntwortenLöschenGive everyone a shot at life. So what if Daddy finds out and you get grounded! (About 50% of abortions in USA)
well i'm not sure i agree with you 100% but i definitely agree with you when you say give everyone a shot at life. I believe that is the perfect will of God.
AntwortenLöschenWe are definitely on the "same page".
I Cr 13:8a
You can whitter on about the scientific and moral stand points all you like, but abortion is only a symptom of the situation. If you want to stop abortion; stop unwanted pregnancies. If you want to stop unwanted pregnancies then be realistic and teach people how to stop them. Relying on abstinence will never work all the time.
AntwortenLöschenThe other problem is the health of the mother, should the life of the child be taken as more important than the mothers in cases where a pregnancy would significantly harm the mother or even kill her (and maybe the child too)?
If you stop the pregnancy before it happens, surely that is a better solution than abortion? Why then are so many against giving the advice that would help people make their sex safe?
Thank you Neil.
AntwortenLöschenI totally agree.
Why is it most other industrialized nations "get this".
Perhaps because they aren't blinded by religious dogma which ignores the obvious in human nature.
Look... believe in whatever fairy tale you want, but please do not legislate it except MAYBE in the most extreme cases.
I can see making third trimester abortions either more difficult (proof of defect or danger to the mother) or more rare ( through EDUCATION and rejection of moralizing which causes women to wait or be in denial), but beyond that the decision is the woman's alone to make.
You could carry that "when life begins argument to ridiculous extremes... sperm cells and ova are "life" if you want to get technical. So every act of sex which does not result in pregnancy and birth mean "death".
And let's not even get into masturbation... or a woman's menses. Wastes of potential offspring, no?
Reason and common sense needs to come to America. Our Puritanical heritage has caused enough damage.
15-20% of known pregnancies end in miscarriage. (Mayo clinic) Even God/nature does not give everyone a shot at life.
AntwortenLöschenNature kills things all the time. I.E. Hurricane Katrina (Well - Nature and Ray Nagin & Gov Blanco)
AntwortenLöschenPeople killing other people is entirely different.
You are then opposed to war. Particularly a war in which the killing of children is known as collateral damage.
AntwortenLöschenThis is an honest and genuine statement. I am torn as well. That is why I stay away from absolutes such as "always" and "never". Discussions about abortion that look at the many different circumstances that women and families find themselves in can be productive if people keep an open mind.
AntwortenLöschenAssuming we're talking about "people"...
AntwortenLöschenGood point, Jen.
AntwortenLöschenWhen you call this a Fetus - A random gathering of meaningless cells - It's much easier to kill it.
AntwortenLöschenWhen you call it a person - and see for yourself on an Ultrasound that it is - then it becomes harder.
Brain waves are first detectable about 6 weeks after conception. A fetus is a living member of the human species. If you terminate it what is that called exactly?
How about when you call it Iraqi?
AntwortenLöschenOr a German. Or a British colonialist. Or a Korean. Or Al Quaida. Or the Taliban.
AntwortenLöschenYES war kills people.
So that's your argument for killing babies. "We killed a few when we took down Hitler, so abortion is OK"
Really?
Actually, yes. If you are going to deal in absolutes, killing is killing. If killing is wrong, then killing is wrong. If killing is ok under some circumstances, then it is a whole new ball game.
AntwortenLöschenKilling Hitler before he kills more people is justified. Killing an innocent baby is not the same.
AntwortenLöschenI no longer feel you are in this discussion to exchange ideas.
AntwortenLöschenGodwin
AntwortenLöschenLOL!
AntwortenLöschenYou're supposed to *cough* it out, D! ;~P
Look, this whole discussion is pointless. At this time everybody has their position staked out, and there isn't shaking anybody loose from it. Which is why I am treating the whole thing as a non-debate. We all know all the arguments, and it all depends on (1) at what point you consider a developing embryo a human life, and (2) under what conditions a woman should be able to stop carrying that embryo if she so desires. Unfortunately it is not possible for her to just pull the thing out and say "here, you want it, YOU hatch it".
AntwortenLöschenIt also may depend on what value you put on a human life period. Some people tend to put a lot on it up until the moment it emerges and takes its first breath. Then it is on its own. Good Luck Buddy! *shrug*
In any case, it is a pointless debate. Though it did take longer than I expected to Godwin it this time.
You don't know how many times i wished i could say that to the Pro-life crowd.
AntwortenLöschenYou're right of course. Everyone has their own views which is why the law should NOT impose one particular view by banning it outright.
I think those of us who are Pro-choice can agree with Bill Clinton that abortion should be legal, safe, and RARE.
I've been in the position of being one half responsible for an unwanted pregnancy.. easier for the man, I do understand. We agreed that abortion, while the foetus was barely a cluster of cells and certainly without fully developed nerve-endings or sense of self, was for the greater good. To bring that 'child' into the world would have been ridiculously irresponsible. Unfortunate that pregnancy occurred at all, but once it does, I can say from that experience that I'm glad abortion was a legal option for us. She never forgave me emotionally, but that is a consequence I can live with, rather than create another human being for whom I cannot be a decent father... a few years have passed and today, my thinking is that some people just have no business raising children at all. I don't want any at this time, and don't feel that I'm in any position, financially and so on, to do so, and do it well.
AntwortenLöschenI do however think it is mostly a religious issue, and as such, I don't give a toss what other people think. It's a non-debate, for me. It happened, we did the right thing. If you disagree, go pray for my redemption...
I only replied because of this first hand experience. Other than that, I don't see why this topic is even here. On an international scale... sure, I can see why it's big news to Christian America, but somewhere like China?
I find the idea of a law governing what we can do with our own bodies, ridiculous. If I want to have unprotected sex then agree with partner to abort the unwanted resulting pregnancy, if I want to ingest psilocybin, or commit suicide... wtf has that got to do with anyone else? Please don't answer that... I don't care. I don't think this post belongs on this group, and I'm 99% sure Randy just put it here to poke fun at what he knew would be the majority response.
I think that's probably the best option for the entire matter... at least for those opposed.
AntwortenLöschenRather than impose their beliefs on others, opponents, especially those with religious convictions against it should just lament that their views are not shared and pray for redemption, understanding, a change of attitude, or ...whatever.
It should make them feel better on some level, and the rest of us can continue to enjoy freedom of choice.
Thanks for posting your personal experience. I have had two close friends who've gone through that same thing back in college and they too terminated early in the pregnancy. Then each went on to complete their education and move on in their lives not burdened with children they were ill equipped to care for and bound in a relationship which may or may not have worked out, but only have had the child keeping them tied to each other.
Pregnancy, childbirth, and parenting is not something that should be forced on anyone.
To those who say abortion is always wrong, let me tell you about an old acquaintance of mine, Bill who was originally from Michigan. I haven't seen him around for a couple of years. I suspect he might have died, as he didn't respond to my email. Or not as the case may be. Bill is around 60 years old, but looks at least a decade older. He walks with a cane, and the last time I ran into him, he was in ghastly physical shape. He has been for a number of years.
AntwortenLöschenBill and his wife have a daughter. She would be perhaps 26 or 27 now. She was born with a condition that I believe is known as micro encephalitis. That is to say, in Bill's own words, she has the brain power of a cactus. I met her once when Bill invited some of us to a farewell party for a friend who was heading off home after several years in his job. She sat on the floor, with two of Bill's three cats warming themselves on her. She made little noises, and rocked about. Apparently, she is physically capable of standing, but cannot walk as she hasn't enough brain power to learn how to. She has precisely no comprehension of anything around her, and once again, according to Bill, she shows absolutely no ability to recognise him or his wife, or demonstrate the slightest evidence that she has any kind of self-awareness or even consciousness that is more developed than the aforementioned cactus.
Bill and his wife have cared for this child ever since she was born. He said, had they known, they would have certainly opted for abortion, but didn't have the information. Back then, there weren't the scans and technology that is available now I suppose.
Bill and his wife have never had a holiday from the time they realised their daughter was a human vegetable. Bill sometimes travels on business, he deals in expensive watches I believe he said. He is a brilliant, creative man who has been ground down by the sheer misery of his existence due to the burden of caring for his daughter. I knew Bill before his child was born, he was a thoroughly amusing chap who would entertain us with his caustic wit and even his sketch pad where he drew sarcastic caricatures of political figures that could put many of those published in the daily papers to shame. Over the years, when I ran into Bill he would be a changed person. A sour, bitterly angry man who took out his frustration with the lot fate dealt him by drinking excessively and pigging out on junk food to the point where he became something close to clinically obese.
I ask you, can anyone say that his daughter in any way enriched the lives of Bill and his wife? If you can, then I cannot see any point in discussing this further with you. There are times when an abortion would be kinder, for the alternative is to condemn not just the baby to a mindless existence but to ruin the lives of its parents as well.
I'm glad I never had any of my own children. I would have made a dreadful father. I am not suited to it in the slightest. That is why we must impress on teenagers the importance of using contraception. Forget abstinence programmes, they only work on people who are already less likely to have sex (or so the received wisdom goes, in fact, I have read that evangelical Christians and others are just as likely to screw around, but they tend to not use protection when they do.)
Sorry...didnt read any of the comments...yet. But its an easy choice...im male...cant carry kids...not my choice...last time I checked its a medical procedure. Doctor/patients priviledge, lets keep it that way.
AntwortenLöschenI bet if men carried kids the laws would be on how many kids you could have. That and abortions would be done via drive thru.
LOL!
AntwortenLöschenI love you, James!
Just trying to be honest.
AntwortenLöschenOne other thing...I vote other.
AntwortenLöschenKilling in defense of your home, or nation, or to prevent some tyrant of killings others is NOT wrong. On the other hand
AntwortenLöschencold blooded murder is wrong, for example, a baby in the womb who would only like a chance at life, just like the two
people who conceived that baby.
I Cr 13:8a
Thank-you,
AntwortenLöschenI Cr 13:8a
How much better it would be if people had the knowledge and the sense to practice safe sex rather than be left ignorant and get pregnant from that ignorance. If there were no unwanted pregnancies how much less need there would be for abortion in the first place. The number of unwanted pregnancies shows that a policy of telling people not to have sex is not working, short of getting shariah levels of control on the genders, it never will (and even then there are still cases of unwanted pregnancies). It is not rocket science to understand that if there is no pregnancy there is no abortion.
AntwortenLöschenThank YOU, Neil!
AntwortenLöschenAnd yet the religious whacks reject sex ed for kids and birth control for all.
After how many years of human history (also in dispute with them) are they still clinging to the belief that sex should only happen in marriage... for procreation.
Yikes!
What you say is very true. And society here in the west has been saying that for the last 50 years or so...at least since I started paying attention (I'm 66). But what you're saying doesn't seem to have much of an impact considering all the abortions.
AntwortenLöschenI Cr 13:8a
I'm one of those "religious whacks" as you like to say, but from where I sit in LA for the better part of my life we have had sex ed on top of sex ed on top of sex ed on top of sex ed on top of sex etc etc, ad infinitum, ad nauseum, and its still doesn't seem to be working. I'm 66 and if sex ed were gonna make a different in our western society, it seems to
AntwortenLöschenme we wouldn't be having so many abortions. I don't know, what to say, but what ever they're saying out there in society it seems to me that no one has got any real answers to the problem of abortion. And Abortion is a real problem. I mean for the woman having the abortion. It is an highly invasive and dangerous procedure even in the
most pristine medical surgical surroundings. This is what I've been told by doctors and nurses both.
I Cr 13:8a
And the liberals are doing a real stand up job on sex ed and birth control.
AntwortenLöschenShock: 41% of New York City Pregnancies End in Abortion
http://www.lifenews.com/2011/01/07/shock-41-of-new-york-city-pregnancies-end-in-abortion/
I think the best way to say this is...
AntwortenLöschenIts legal...GTFOI!
If you dont like it...move to another country!
Sorry everyone...its the conservative in me coming out.
Conservative???
AntwortenLöschenOhhhh ... you must mean you're a REAL Conservative... believing in the Constitution for ALL, not just the ones you approve of.
Sorta like the First Amendment, even for Nazis and flag burners and *GASP* peaceful protesters...
That kind?
Slavery was once legal also. It was once legal to deny women the right to vote.
AntwortenLöschenBesides I can't move. I love Idaho and other countries don't have real football.
Go Notre Dame. Beat FSU!!!!
Has that one been repealed yet?
AntwortenLöschenJust that as long as I work for money for another man, he holds me as his slave. OK, it is sometimes possible to change slavemasters, but that is about all.
Now we are all slaves to society, and the asshole politicians who run it.
Of course you cant move. Im shocked you dont recognize the "love it or leave it" bumper sticker talking point that so many "conservatives" make as a defense of their beliefs.
AntwortenLöschenIdaho? I thought that you moved?
Real football?...Real football is played without pads!
ND beating FSU? 50-50 shot there.
Thank you!
AntwortenLöschenMaybe that is because those with the responsibility to actually do the job are either to embarrassed (parents) or too afraid of the consequences (teachers and youth workers) to get the job done so kids are left ignorant or told not to do things (what better motive to try something than to be told its wrong with no explanation). Look at the level of sex crime in more open cultures e,g, Scandinavial it is much lower, as are unwanted pregnancies and abortions. Being open about such matters does not take away innocence, but it does stop ignorance. When people have all the facts they can make informed choices, yake that information away and they are left (literally) fumbling in the dark. It is cause and effect personified.
AntwortenLöschenreal football has more to do with using the feet to kick a ball than being pansy like and putting on all that silly armor... real football requires all the team to play all the match not be an over paid specialist who does two things per game if they are lucky. Lets see some of those grid iron prima-donnas take on a real game with real men on either the soccer or even rugby union fields... they would not be able to take it.
AntwortenLöschenNeil... who's your team, by the way?... you can't really defend football (soccer) by saying gridiron players are 'primadonnas'... soccer players are obscenely overpaid and fall over at the slightest contact. Case in point - Didier Drogba (one from my own choice of club), and most Spanish. Or Brazil's Rivaldo a few World Cups ago, trying to get a corner - kicked in the leg, and fell over clutching his face. Cheating so boldly at that level was sickening.
AntwortenLöschenI know very little about NFL. Doesn't interest - too stop and start for me. I see it as a domestic American thing, like Baseball. Rugby Union, now those guys are MEN. Would love to see USA's finest 'footballers' play a charity match against, say Australia or New Zealand... I think USA have a fair RU national side? Like 'soccer', I guess it will always be secondary interest to NFL, Baseball or even Basketball. Like India plays Cricket. Can't be good at everything.
Back on topic... what a woman chooses to do with her body, in agreement with her partner or not, is her business. I don't think it is for any government, church or law-court to lay down rules. Even if they did, it would only go black-market and be more dangerous anyway, like that old chestnut, banning boxing. Those gridiron players must take some knocks... perhaps they should ban that?
I don't have a 'team' I do not follow football (soccer) at anything other than a local level where the players are there to play the game not get paid obscene amounts of money which is collected from the fans. The comment about the prima-donnas can be applied to many soccer players too only they at least stay on the pitch and play the game for the whole time with out the need to stop for some corporate messages, sometimes I wonder whether in the NFL the sport has become secondary to the advertising, certainly the adverts on the Superbowl matches get hyped as much as the match in the after game shows. Sport should be sport not just another way for companies to bombard us with messages of how we are not a worthy person unless we buy their product.
AntwortenLöschenAlso back on topic, you are right, banning abortion would only drive the practice onto the black market and it would not stop the practice going on. Ireland has (or had) a ban on abortion, so the women traveled to other countries to get it done... there will always be ways in which it can happen. I still think that it is better to stop the pregnancy than to have an abortion. But sadly those who would ban abortion are often the ones who would ban, or at least try to limit contraception and education about safe sex for all based on their ideals.
Each truth needs somebody to tell it....
AntwortenLöschenThank you for being in the small but growing ranks of MEN who get that.
AntwortenLöschenIt's the same as the ban on drugs, and before that the SUPREMELY unsuccessful ban on alcohol. All that did was create an underground and spark the growth of the Mafia. Nice.
American conservatives are still living the Puritan ethos. They need to control people's behavior, in some inexplicable religious mission i guess.
There's a saying that goes something like "Puritanism is the haunting fear that someone somewhere might be having a good time".
Bravo Ulla.... and George Carlin!
AntwortenLöschenThere is much truth in every word he said.
Some Conservatives will try to spin it otherwise with religious mumbo jumbo and innocent life vs.... whatever the hell rest of us are that makes us expendable. But the fetus must be preserved at all cost.
Maybe that's it. Maybe they're afraid that as women grow wiser many don't feel the need to become the "brood mare for the state"... harsh.
But it might be sort of the opposite of China where they needed to stop women from having so many babies.
Wasn't there a limit of two?
Cons need to control rather than educate people then leave them to make their own decisions.
As Neil points out it usually works out in such countries that know that.
He is a comic right?
AntwortenLöschenSo were Will Rogers and Mark Twain Randy. The dividing line between comedy and philosophy is kind of thin in some cases, though one tends to make more money from the comedy side of it. A number of philosophers used humor to get their points across, Bertrand Russel for example. If you are trying to discount his opinion as being "just a comedian" you are proposing a losing argument.
AntwortenLöschenHe's also a fellow human being with ideas just as valid as yours or anyone else's.
AntwortenLöschenThe fact that he happens to be SPOT ON is besides the point... but maybe why you need to discount him.
I just thought he is in the tradition of the court jesters, the only ones who were allowed to tell the truth without getting their head cut off, because they were able to express it in a way that makes people laugh first and think later.
AntwortenLöschenAhhh... good point!
AntwortenLöschenFine, I will just call his comments baseless, unfounded and idiotic then.
AntwortenLöschen"These people are killing doctors" really? One guy in 1972 and all conservatives ever get painted as killers?
He is a fool.
I think there were a few more than one... George Tiller ring a bell, 2009, wasn't it? And bombings too.
AntwortenLöschenAnd that was just one of his points to show how extreme Pro-Lifers CAN be.
His points about Cons not caring about people outside of the womb might be debatable, but are not baseless
I could say the same and worse about Ann Coulter who you post and think is SO comical.
AntwortenLöschenAll depends who's ox is being gored, eh?
From the person who started a thread with the notion that all Europeans hate Jews, to hear you now berate someone for using generalizations just shows how hypocritical you can be. You made the point yourself, the guy is a comedian, one who exaggerates for comic effect. to see you get so defensive shows just how close to a raw nerve he got.
AntwortenLöschenOn the other hand, and I did question sid closely on this one, he believes his obligation (for children other than his own) ends when they are born. That is the government should intervene only up until the baby's head emerges. It isn't a matter of how you raise your own kids Randy, it's a matter of what obligation society has towards fetuses it insists should be born regardless of the opinions of the people that produced the fetus. Now I am asking you directly: A two year old child is no more capable of fending for itself then a fetus. If left alone it will die. Now what do you think the government's obligation to ensure it has a chance to survive and be a productive member of society should be? And how did you intend to fund that?
AntwortenLöschenIf there are no private organizations willing to step in and adoption is not an option then government has an obligation to care for the child. Obviously this would be funded by taxes.
AntwortenLöschenWhich brings me to my next point. Why is adoption so hard and expensive. I was at a party just last night asking my buddy if he was going to adopt another child. They already adopted one. His response is the same one I always hear. The process is too difficult and expensive. I want to say it costs like $25K.
It seems to me that all people of all political leanings should work to make this easier and cheaper. Not all pro lifers want abortion outlawed. I call my self pro life but I am torn on Row v Wade. I am for making abortions harder to get for the rich high school girl who doesn't want to tell her parents because she will get in trouble.
I went to a Catholic HS and knew several girls who used abortion pretty much as birth control.
I knew a white kid that used the n word.
AntwortenLöschenI knew a lazy kid that loved to workout.
I knew a girl that only dated rich men.
I knew a geek that was a starting QB in Chicago.
I knew a jewish person that loves Palestine.
I knew a weak debater that always uses I knew as a fact.
Yada Yada Yada!