US President Barack Obama gets precious few opportunities to announce a victory. So it's no wonder he chose grand words on Sunday night as the TV crews' spotlights shone upon him and he informed the nation about the deadly strike against Osama bin Laden. "Justice has been done," he said.
It may be that this sentence comes back to haunt him in the years to come. What is just about killing a feared terrorist in his home in the middle of Pakistan? For the families of the victims of the 9/11 attacks, and for patriotic Americans who saw their grand nation challenged by a band of criminals, the answer might be simple. But international law experts, who have been grappling with the question of the legal status of the US-led war on terror for years, find Obama's pithy words on Sunday night more problematic.
Claus Kress, an international law professor at the University of Cologne, argues that achieving retributive justice for crimes, difficult as that may be, is "not achieved through summary executions, but through a punishment that is meted out at the end of a trial." Kress says the normal way of handling a man who is sought globally for commissioning murder would be to arrest him, put him on trial and ultimately convict him. In the context of international law, military force can be used in the arrest of a suspect, and this may entail gun fire or situations of self-defense that, in the end, leave no other possibility than to kill a highly dangerous and highly suspicious person. These developments can also lead to tragic and inevitable escalations of the justice process.
It is unfortunate. And it is certainly no reason for the indescribable jubilation that broke out on Sunday night across America -- and especially not for applause inside the CIA's operations center.
Not Everything the US Declares To Be War Really Is
But Obama and his predecessor Bush never sought the kind of justice that would have seen bin Laden tried in an international court. As early as his election campaign in 2008, Obama swore he would "kill bin Laden" and finish the job begun by his predecessor after 9/11. "We went to war against al-Qaida to protect our citizens, our friends and our allies," the president explained on Sunday night. A US national security official didn't beat around the bush, telling Reuters, "This was a kill operation." And why shouldn't it be? The very goal of war is the defeat of the opponent, the killing of enemies through legal means. War is war.
Read the full article http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,760358,00.html
... Die Amerikaner haben eine Vorstellung von Rechtmäßigkeit sehr elastisch und Einweg-
AntwortenLöschenSorry... I'm glad he's dead. After nearly ten years on the run, did anyone think he'd simply turn his back and put his hands in the position to be cuffed and perp-walked out through a lineup of his followers and detractors on opposite sides cheering and jeering, respectively?
AntwortenLöschenI don't think you're going to convince many Americans of this legality argument. Or, rather, those Americans who don't buy into "the whole thing was faked" conspiracy nonsense.
I swear... it's either, it's all a fake.... or it's a travesty of justice...
"Can't we all just get along"?
As for the dancing and cheering in the streets...
AntwortenLöschenFirst, they were mostly young people, irrationally exuberant and out in a joyful crowd on a pleasant Sunday night.
Second, Americans tend to be very superficially emotional, they show their feelings easily if not always appropriately.
I'm not saying it was right to run dancing through the streets to celebrate the killing of someone, but...
Far too many Americans, especially those of us in NYC and DC remember (or lived through) scenes of thousands of people on the streets of lower Manhattan, covered in white ash, choking, dazed, and in shock having been the lucky ones to have gotten out of the towers alive.
9/11 was a shock to the psyche of America. Never before (except for distant Pearl Harbor) had an attack so shockingly devastating happened in our country.
This is a young country, inexperienced with the horrors of war on our soil.
Then we're told the perpetrator, who'd escaped capture for nearly ten years has been killed...
Is it so hard to understand the jubilation?
I don't share it, but i certainly get it.
Justice would have been years in a damp, poorly cell to ponder on his deeds, or at least understanding that what he did is what put him there. Part of the point of a trial is to make these factors uppermost in the criminal's own eyes. What we see here isn't even good revenge: death is quick.
AntwortenLöschenI see some benefit to those who lost family and friends in 9/11, and to those who believe that Osama is going to hell. This makes me think: one of the reasons why the religious believe in death for criminals (since this isn't the death penalty, but only death), is their belief in the afterlife. In the absence of such a belief, death is simply letting them off the hook.
I think in the absence of belief it's simply letting oneself off the hook.
AntwortenLöschenHe was evil, did a lot of harm, now he's dead, case closed. I don't think much more about it than that.
I think a whole charade of a trial and the reliving of it all is more ...emotionally necessary for some.
For the rest of us it's over... that chapter, anyway.
Now on to our other problems...
Next!
.... law means public process, not things like Guantanamo ... the public process is an achievement of civilization, every other form of administration of justice is by definition wrong ..
AntwortenLöschenReally?
AntwortenLöschenHis death offers closure to those who lost loved ones in 9/11. It removes someone who believed that killing those that stand between them and his goals is justified. Beyond that, it does nothing to address the root causes of what makes people follow such fiends.
AntwortenLöschenAccording to the latest reports it appears nobody in that house was armed. It also appears a number of people were placed in restraints. At this point I would have to go with the notion that the commandos were ordered to kill Bin Laden on sight, and probably the two couriers too. The other two casualties, one died, one wounded were probably both involving the assassination, and that's pretty much what it was, of Bin Laden.
AntwortenLöschenI think in the long run it was better for everybody it was done that way instead of a trial, but at this point I don't think anybody had any intention of taking him out of there alive regardless of circumstances.
Osama bin Laden 'Was Not Armed and Did Not Use Wife as Human Shield'
AntwortenLöschenhttp://www.uruknet.info/?p=m77379&hd=&size=1&l=e
you are right
The widespread jubilation at reports of Bin Laden's death is misplaced. Patriotic Americans should be angry.
AntwortenLöschenAfter 9/11, the United States government shredded our Constitution and took away our rights not be be spied on and not to be tortured and not to be assassinated abroad. Our government built Guantanamo. The goal of destroying our laws was, we were told, to usher in an era of "enhanced interrogation" to get information to prevent terrorist attacks.
Instead of killing Bin Laden, the U.S. should have captured and interrogated him. Think how much information we could have gained! If alleged low-level members of Al Qaeda are thought to have information important enough for our government to lock them up at Guantanamo for almost 10 years, then wouldn't it have been smart to ask Bin Laden a few questions instead of shooting him? He's been called the "mastermind" of 9/11 and all things Al Qaeda.
If anyone thinks our military couldn't have captured Bin Laden alive and that the killing was somehow necessary, well, they lack faith in our troops. U.S. troops are amazingly well-trained -- the world's best -- and can achieve miraculous results.
Perhaps revenge is sweet, but when it comes at the expense of gaining actionable intelligence that could help the U.S. win the ongoing, Constitution-shredding War on Terror, it's a feel-good emotion we can't afford.
Brian J. Foley is a law professor. Email him at brian_j_foley@yahoo.com Visit his blog at http://brianjfoley.net/
http://www.counterpunch.org/foley05032011.html
"Twenty-three children and nine women were in the compound at the time of the assault and were turned over to Pakistani authorities, added the US official who requested anonymity to discuss an intelligence matter"
AntwortenLöschenTurned over by whom? Did the commando team stick around long enough to hand them over to police?
And if they didn't as I said, they were probably under restraint, which is what I gathered from other reports, something about plastic restraints being used.
i don't know try to find out this morning
AntwortenLöschenposted this in elephant last night and was not pretty
oh and got something else for you
AntwortenLöschenlet me get link
"This news is only coming from one side, from Obama's office, and American has not shown any evidence or proof to support this claim," Taliban spokesman Zabiullah Mujahid said in a statement emailed to journalists. "On the other side, our sources close to Osama bin Laden have not confirmed or denied the news."
AntwortenLöschenTaliban react to report of bin Laden's death with suspicion, demand proof
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m77388&hd=&size=1&l=e
plus you know the viagra thing about gadaffi
AntwortenLöschenwas also blatant lie from susan rice
It is a bit surprising that al-Qaida has not acknowledged the death at this point. They usually don't waste a hell of a lot of time doing that, particularly when they can make a martyr out of him easily. Maybe they are playing a game to get the US to make an error by releasing the photos of Bin Laden's body, maybe they are in complete disarray (we wish), or maybe something else is going on.
AntwortenLöschendon't know but am watching
AntwortenLöschenhave few radical links i go to
like when they announced the jailbreak
if see something let you know
There were 'thousands' of people in front of the White House cheering. Described by MSNBC as a "flash-mob".
AntwortenLöschenFor perspective....there are at least 600,000 people living in DC proper and several million in the immediate area.
I wouldn't put too much stock in this spontaneous outburst as indicative of the population at large.
hope you are right
AntwortenLöschenis sick vigilantism cheering over death and war
Bin Laden Dead, Hence Alive Again
AntwortenLöschenThe corrupt, vanishing body has fascinated and puzzled societies for millennia. Evita Peron’s power was more significant to Argentineans after her death than during her life. Saints tend to be more useful in a state of persisting decomposition than one of living composure.
Now, it is the Bin Laden phenomenon which appears, yet again, with all its mind numbing force. Facebook and Twitter are overheating with the announcements that America’s bug bear has been butchered in his cave, or should be say compound. The body is being held in US custody.
The death of Bin Laden, who was supposedly assassinated by US forces while in Pakistan, is irrelevant. It never mattered than he was alive to begin with, given the very operation his organisation was supposedly running. The same mistake was made by the Red Brigades operating in Italy during the 1970s – one cannot attack the capitalist system by merely murdering capitalists. The nodal points of business still function with a degree of effortlessness, resisting the slight bumps of assassination. Ideas do tend to outlive their holders. As Roland Jacquard claimed in 2002, Al Qaeda ‘no longer needs either [Bin Laden’s] physical existence or his funds; alive or dead, he has become a talisman for a diffuse, self-sufficient terrorist network with every intention of fulfilling its mission to “lead the world into the apocalypse”.’ One might as well start bumping off the managers of Coca Cola.
http://www.counterpunch.org/kampmark05022011.html
Legal - illegal.
AntwortenLöschenWho decides?
I have been told the Iraq war was illegal. illegal to who and why should I care?
This is a very good question. We do not have a world government. Even I (librul that I am) think the UN is a sham. Who says what is legal and not in international affairs? AND did those people assist the US in tracking down the 9/11 perpetrators and architects?
AntwortenLöschenIt was a vigilante-style execution
AntwortenLöschenrevenge not justice and silence of source of info
Leon Panetta: Obama gave orders to kill Osama bin Laden
AntwortenLöschen"The authorities we have on Bin Laden are to kill him. And that was made clear. But it was also, as part of their rules of engagement, if he suddenly put up his hands and offered to be captured, then-- they would have the opportunity, obviously, to capture him. But that opportunity never developed," CIA director Leon Panetta told NBC News.
Hear Hear!
AntwortenLöschenLets move on killing him and closing that chapter was the best thing to do. A trial would have been a circus and a world spectacle we don't need.
I totally agree!!
AntwortenLöschenis funny how usa thinks it determines international world justice
AntwortenLöschenwho cares what usa personally needs to fit your agenda
look how you handled lockerbie, bravo
Then who determines international justice? Our Towers, our disaster, our solution. If the world doesn't like it - sue us.
AntwortenLöschenis not only crime he committed
AntwortenLöschenhe should have been handed over to arab nation or international justice
not bunch of dam vigilantes with orders to kill
am sure
AntwortenLöschenwhat comes around goes around
Naive.
AntwortenLöschenThe rest of the world doesn't share our "enlightened" views about justice. They're still stuck in the past believing in archaic ideas about due process, habeas corpus, and civil liberties. They don't see the virtue of kidnapping, beating, and waterboarding. They don't cheer when people are butchered and dumped at sea. They don't build Stalinesque gulags and torture chambers to show how forbearing and merciful they are. They're leaders don't go through the ritual chest-thumping exercise on national TV when someone's been assassinated. They don't understand what a wonderful country the US is. All they just want a little breather from all the violence. Is that too much to ask?
AntwortenLöschenhttp://www.counterpunch.org/whitney05042011.html
you say naive and i call it something else
what's really funny is bush did it have a lot more anti war supporters
AntwortenLöschenYou know, since everybody is throwing around conspiracy theories at this point, let me throw one more at you. There is no confirmation that Bin Laden was killed on site, there is at least one report that he was captured there, but killed later. The one person who would know (outside of the assault team) is his wife, who was shot in the calf, which last time I looked did not preclude you from speaking.
AntwortenLöschenSooo... let's go with a new one.
Suppose the reason that they can't show pictures or the body is that he isn't dead - he was indeed captured alive. Actually it would be reasonable. You don't send a commando team in with orders to kill when the target is much more valuable alive if you can take him that way. And by all accounts, he was very take-able alive.
So let's say you want information from him, you want to make sure his whole organization does not scramble like frightened cockroaches which would make that information less useful, and you don't really want to try him at the end. What do you do?
You tell the world you shot him twice in the head and dumped the body at sea of course.
Then you take him into an interrogation room and use whatever methods you want on him 'cause nobody is ever going to see him again. After all, everybody believes he is dead. And at some point, after you are finished extracting the information, he probably will be.
i have heard that one also
AntwortenLöschenwhat i don't get it the silence from other side
maybe they just don't care he was already dead figuratively
And chopping off of hands, and flogging rape victims to death. I think I will take our justice in this instance, tyvm.
AntwortenLöschenFascinating. Of course they did get a lot of data from his computers, DVD's and so forth. But this is interesting.
AntwortenLöschenyes i am familiar with the theory of two wrongs make right
AntwortenLöschenis not shared opinion by all tyvm
Don't want to get cornered and shot? Don't come to the US and blow stuff up. Easy. War is hell.
AntwortenLöschencowboy way
AntwortenLöschenjustice be damned
Yee haw!!
AntwortenLöschenThe evening it was first reported I heard a commentator on ABC News speculate on the idea that OBL shot himself in the head and was then shot in the head again by the US. If there was a cover-up that could be somewhat justified it would have been that. If he offed himself before we had a chance to kill him, he would have went down as a martyr to al Qaeda.
AntwortenLöschenlol
AntwortenLöschenused for pr propaganda for obama when gitmo files were released and he wiped out children going after Gaddafi, imo
AntwortenLöschennothing changes and justice was not served
This is the same self righteous bullshit that started the shitstorm on the thread last night.
AntwortenLöschenWhat a utopian world some people live in.
Too bad it's only in their heads.
This is the reality based world.
Can you imagine trying to have a trial? WHERE?
As for handing him over to Arab states...
HAHAHAHAHA......
your opinion
AntwortenLöscheni say your thoughts on this are self righteous
Some family members of those who died in the World Trade Center or the Pentagon wrote to President Bush, urging that he not match violence with violence, that he not proceed to bomb the people of Afghanistan. Amber Amundson, whose husband, an army pilot, was killed in the attack on the Pentagon, said:
AntwortenLöschenI have heard angry rhetoric by some Americans, including many of our nation's leaders, who advise a heavy dose of revenge and punishment. To those leaders, I would like to make clear that my family and I take no comfort in your words of rage. If you choose to respond to this incomprehensible brutality by perpetuating violence against other innocent human beings, you may not do so in the name of justice for my husband.
http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinn2000electionch25.html
so you see it is not only a foreign opinion on usa's behavior
That was my reaction as well. Which Arab states? Which ones would want him? (They didn't even want him dead.) I called this stance naive and I believe it is.
AntwortenLöschenOpinions are like rectums, everyone has one.
AntwortenLöschenyou betcha
AntwortenLöschenHe would have been sent to the United Nations Detention Unit, Hague Hilton and tried in the ICC.
AntwortenLöschenhere's something from iran news source
AntwortenLöschenTerror and terrorism exacted a most heavy price on their previously picture postcard lives. Poverty, hunger and war descended upon them and blighted anything they ever held dear. Saudi born Bin Laden's lunatic followers took away education from women and men alike and replaced it with explosive vests and Kalashnikov rifles. Tourism died and with it all hope of the locals for leading full, fruitful lives.
Pakistan became a battle ground as Afghanistan reeled under another invasion and occupation. And the rest has been recorded by the world media: minute by minute.
Meanwhile the irresponsible actions of a self-proclaimed holy man cost the lives of a million Iraqis and tens of thousands of Afghan and Pakistani civilians.
Terror, terrorism and tyranny are not dead, sadly, and cannot be buried with Bin Laden and his accomplices. But hopefully his death will provide justifiable reasons for the foreign forces present in the region to leave in large enough numbers to allow peace to return.
The world community's next major hurdle is to destroy tyranny wherever it is found to be flourishing. From Myanmar to Morocco, from Waziristan to Washington, tyrannical ideologies and loony tune schools of philosophy and theosophy must be challenged and defeated, so the good people of the world can sigh a relief. Shamanistic leaders with violent agendas -whatever else their disciples may choose to call them- must be discarded once and for all from the troubled and tragic chapter of human existence
(more at link)
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/177810.html
and this, just what i said, is good pr when he just wiped out children in libya and gitmo file release
AntwortenLöschenBin Laden corps: Obama's campaign tool
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/177907.html
so there you have it
they could care less
just want usa to go away now
We are here to stay.
AntwortenLöschenlol, out of other people's countries
AntwortenLöschenI would prefer we keep our soldiers in our country, yes. I would prefer bombers stay out of ours.
AntwortenLöschenwho wouldn't they feel same way
AntwortenLöschenThis is great back and forth. Bennett makes total sense here. Betsy, you are awesome - I mean that - but reality escapes you.
AntwortenLöschenBin Laden was Evil. He killed 3000 Americans just going to work that day. Now he id dead. What the fuck is the problem?
Randy where have you been all day? I have been hollering for you.
AntwortenLöschenBetsy is solid. She just makes no sense here. Bin Laden was evil and deserves what the Navy Seals gave him. I wanted no show trial - just justice.
AntwortenLöschenShe is "solid", but her extreme stance here shows the Left the danger of too much USA bashing - it forces libruls like me into the arms of hawks like you.
AntwortenLöschenMaybe - but I am really sweet guy!
AntwortenLöschenrandy i am very glad he is gone
AntwortenLöschenbut we disagree on vengeance and justice
and they are glad he's dead too
go see link i just posted
LOL - you are a sweet guy, Randy.
AntwortenLöschen:)
AntwortenLöschenPeople are happy Osama is dead - but there is nothing but criticism for the guys who did it. Huh?? You have to break eggs to make an omelet. Myself, I am very happy those Seals were there.
AntwortenLöschenThere is an element that enjoys greatly criticizing everything the USA does. Everything. To listen to them we are the children of the devil: arrogant, spoiled, etc. Funny thing is, everyone also wants to come here.
I have been a critic of US policies. But I am also a loyal American and I am really sick of the relentless second-guessing of this country - BOTH the Bush and Obama governments - from abroad.
am sorry if you want to change this then please help protest war and outrageous pentagon budget regardless of president
AntwortenLöschenthe rest of the world is not seeing this
I guess I don't need you to tell me what to do. You don't know me or what I am doing. Knock yourself out doing whatever you want. I met people like you 40 years ago - you don't change and you don't change anything. Right now I don't give a crap about the rest of the world and their opinion of the US.
AntwortenLöschenthen don't tell me to give a care about usa agenda
AntwortenLöschenUm I do. The world is getting to be too small a place to ignore the rest of the world. It sort of comes to roost on your doorstep if you don't do anything about it. I do think tracking Osama down was the right decision, and I don't think the world could have afforded a trial, so I am with you on this one.
AntwortenLöschenThat said, you aren't going to wipe out Islamic terrorist movements like that, not unless you are prepared to be really, really ruthless. It does matter what other countries think of us in that regard, and at the moment, we are not held in high esteem by much of anybody. We need to concentrate a little less on the military, and a little more on what we do well at - which is helping other people in times of need.
am putting another point of view
AntwortenLöschendon't like it good for you
Including this naive woman.
AntwortenLöschencomes to the US then proceeds to bash everything we do... Weird.
Hey Jen, nice to see you. Yes, a naive point of view. Good night.
AntwortenLöschenI was quiet last night when someone invited her to leave, since she found the US so aggregegious, but now i'm thinking he had a point
AntwortenLöschenNight, Benni.
AntwortenLöschenSomeone invited her to leave? LOL. (There's a serious side to that as well, but I am tired so will deal with this later.) (Perhaps).
AntwortenLöschenYeah... it got ugly. *shrug*
AntwortenLöschenI am tired too, but i really don't care how, when or in what matter Bin Laden died.
AntwortenLöschenOnly a small cabal of USA/Obama haters do.
Time for the Daily Show...
Later!
yeah thats funny jen
AntwortenLöschenbeing exposed to racism and called wop
and how kind of you to drag dirt here
AntwortenLöschenDidn't say it was funny... said it was ugly.
AntwortenLöschenAnd to be fair, that wasn't the thread where he called you that, so i never witnessed it.
and i am citizen not getting expelled for my views
AntwortenLöscheni reported him for racism
yeah he did it there too
AntwortenLöschenis not funny at all
anyway
AntwortenLöschenhad enough of the fun
to each his own opinion
good night
I was trying hard to be "kind" last night by keeping out of it.
AntwortenLöschenBut the more i read from you the more i wonder why it is you stay in a country you have so many problems with.
I don't have the luxury of homes in two countries, but if i did i certainly wouldn't stay in a country that made me so incrdedibly unhappy.
Just sayin...
Yes, but you also hold citizenship in another country.
AntwortenLöschenSurely you'd be more comfortable there.
If not... let's here the Italy bashing... at least half as much?
Some people have the luxury of criticizing from ivory towers. Those were often the rich kids in Vietnam days. They became bankers and lawyers. They just wanted to criticize, they had nothing to offer. The cabal of USA Obama haters remind me of the,m.
AntwortenLöschenlol, i do and i already gave you link to my wordpress
AntwortenLöschenis both italy and here
and i do not have to justify myself to you
not going anywhere
yeah i'm a rich independent farmer what a joke
AntwortenLöschenNo, but you might want to try some fairness and equality HERE.
AntwortenLöschenNot really interested in Wordpress.
Why not post HERE about all the EVILS of Italy and its leader?
Maybe because you enjoy pissing off Americans?
You're welcome to bitch, whine and moan anywhere.
And we're welcome to YAWNNNNNN...
screw you
AntwortenLöscheni just got here
left the racist group
you pay attention to what you like
AntwortenLöschenand then cry when is against your opinion
tough
Oh i'm sure you'll find a reason to leave this group too.
AntwortenLöschenSorry... your stuff is just not that interesting, and has become annoying.
good then i won't be blessed with your presence when i post
AntwortenLöschentypical american bully crap
AntwortenLöschenThought YOU were American?
AntwortenLöschenWouldn't that make YOU a bully as well?
LOL!!!!
lol, don't ever call anyone else a troll
AntwortenLöschenOh i'm a troll?
AntwortenLöschenBecause i challenge your naive, whiny, "Americans are so mean but i live here and am going to stay and continue to whine " stance?
ROFLOL!!!!
no dear
AntwortenLöschenbecause you come here like a gossipy lil troll with dirt from other group laughing about racism
remind me of tammiwolf or bertha
AntwortenLöschenTammiwolf IS Bertha
AntwortenLöschenTHAT set you off???
AntwortenLöschenLOL!!!! My you ARE the sensitive lil soul aren't you?
"people are mean... to each other and especially to ME"
Whaaaaa...
Grow up...
It's a cruel world...shit happens.
yeah so did slavery
AntwortenLöschenYup!
AntwortenLöschenGood morning everybody, it seems some of you had quite a quarrel last night and got personal, when I slept. This thread started great, everybody tried to be sensitive and then you started to stickle like brats in a sandpit. You may disagree as much as you want, but nastiness and to haunt each other out of the group is not tolerated. You may delete your nasty comments or I will do in some hours. I can't discuss on such a level. I see there is a wide gap between the different opinions and we have to be very careful not to widen it unnecessary.
AntwortenLöschengo ahead and delete whatever you find offensive
AntwortenLöschenam not going to rehash this today
apologize Ulla
but am not backing down on my opinion
Ok, all the nasty and off topic stuff deleted.
AntwortenLöschen