Impeached? The Americans are eating this up (ok, maybe not all) but there is no way he will be impeached. Even arch-villain Rush Limbaugh sent congrats to the Prez. TURN THE PAGE!!
I say it again, there's a deep gap about it between US-patriots and the rest of the world. You may keep it in mind or not. We will see the consequences. I wish we can come to a state of understanding and co-operation again. Everything else would be disastrous.
Really? Well understand............I didn't like what was done to the US on 9/11 and I won't ever forget that! .We may see the consequences ........I'm just glad THEY DID! That from me who is really a PEACEABLE MAN!
I think there's some confusion here about what "U. S. patriot" means. The people who scream the loudest aren't supposed to win just because they're noisy. This right-wing, bigoted, warmonger as patriot stuff is as bad as the way everyone has come to associate both theism and atheism with fundamentalists because it's the fundamentalists who do all that shouting in that arena. A true patriot is someone who wants to keep what works and change what doesn't, not someone who blindly insists that his or her country can do no wrong--and that's regardless of country. Calling people who enable and even elevate what's worst about their country is (pardon the children's book analogy, but it's too apt to pass up) like assuming that the Dursleys from the Harry Potter books are the quintessence of "good parenting" because they say, loudly and often, that they love their Duddikins and are good parents. Baglava, if you were using three phrase as a sarcastic jab at people who call themselves patriots but won't admit there is anything wrong with the country, I apologize for agreeing with you in a way that sounded like a correction; it's just they so many people DO mistake the fools for patriots because they keep saying that's what they are.
IMO, part of trying to fix what's wrong with one's country is not standing quietly by while false patriots put the needs or desires of its people ahead of those of the rest of the world.
Carina, I don't doubt that there are people who deny the role the U.S. played in helping to make bin Laden what he was. To suggest that he is somehow, therefore, not culpable for his actions or that a country shouldn't address a problem it *helped* to create is naïve. The U.S. also helped create the problem of Israel. I, for one, would like to see my country do something about that mess it helped to create. I guess, though, you would say that giving Israel less support and being very firm about the need for a recognition of Palestinian rights and Palestinian sovereignty would be reason to impeach whatever president did out, because previous presidents helped create the problem. Is that right? That would be consistent with the position you seem to be taking here.
If you'd have it one way for bin Laden (hands off, it was your fault to begin with) and another for Israel (do something about them, this is your fault), then I'm not surprised you're getting scant attention and quick dismissals from Americans. We are up to our necks in hypocrites who overgeneralize about others and make idiotic claims about what it means to be American without paying attention to more hypocrisy, overgeneralization, and ridiculous assertions about American-ness.
Of course, it's possible you're really coming from the POV that what bin Laden did was justified. In that case, feel free to take personal responsibility for whatever your government does wrong, even if you opposthe wrong action, the government itself, or both. I'll have patience with people who want to punish me for the actions of people I voted against or who were in office before I could vote--well, I never will. But I'd be a lot less impatient if they were bankrupting themselves and risking the health and lives of their families along with their own to make amends for actions they did not support and could not prevent. But I will never advocate killing them or be happy if they are killed.
But then, I don't think of any country as a monolith. If I did, I might be for killing all the people of countries when I disagreed with things their countries did. That is EXACTLY the same kind of thinking that less to hate crimes against Muslims: They're all alike, Those People. Whether you support what bin Laden did or not--and I assume as well as hope that you do not--your comments here seem to have a little of that "they're all alike" flavor when it comes to Americans.
Many Americans acknowledge the role the US played in creating Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden and the Shah of Iran. We acknowledge the role of "the West" in creating the problems of the middle east. We have varying feelings about Israel, even those of us who recognize the injustices of the Palestinian situation. I cannot speak for all my countrymen.
How far back shall we go in pointing fingers? To the invention of cordite prior to The Great War? To the participants of the Second World War and the persecution and genocide of the Jews? To the Russian invasion of Afghanistan? We all have "blood on our hands". The US, Russia, Great Britain, Germany and on.
Pointing fingers solves little. Self-righteous disdain of another country's actions solves nothing. To paraphrase, if we want justice, we need to work for peace.
Thank you Karen and Bennett both for your clarifying explanations. It is true, Karen, from outside we often oversee that beyond the unnerving noise of the false patriots we overhear the more silent voices of the true patriots. I wholeheartedly agree to your definition of both.
I suddenly understood that we in Germany have had our full share of false patriotism and more of that last century. I mean not only the Nazi-time, but also the authoritarian, illiberal Empire before. We learned loud patriotism is something to distrust, because it led us into a disaster. So you will find true patriots here as silent working as probably everywhere, but only few of the loud, demonstrative patriotic behavior. We just find it peculiar, except in a kind version at soccer championships. ;-)
Another point that makes the killing of Bin Laden so hard to accept for many of us is the fact that we don't have death penalty in Europe. As far as I know it even is a condition for a country, that wants to become a member of the EU, to abolish death penalty. Most of us see death penalty as a barbaric ritual, not acceptable for a modern humanist society. So I guess US citizens can easier accept killing as a punishment than Europeans, because they accept death penalty.
Bennett, I also can agree to what you wrote especially to your last sentence "To paraphrase, if we want justice, we need to work for peace." Yesssss!
Actually, many of us are against the death penalty, which is why we do have ambivilance about this. I think that BinLaden is seen as someone who did such a horrific thing, then planned to do more, even broadcast his plans in frequent videos that seemed to mock our feelings and flaunt his ability to allude capture.The notion of self defense might also play a role.. "get him before he has a chance to get us...AGAIN. Plus the serious danger he presented and the prospect of not only a show trial that would likely take years and present a target for terrorists wherever he was held.
I think the majority of us were not celebrating as much as breathing a sigh of relief.
I think that constant barrage of anti-American sentiment posted here drove many of us who might tend to agree with the concerns expressed about American aggression into a defensive mode that had us aligned with the likes of those "loud" patriots who are the "America can do no wrong" crowd. I don't think any of the posters here think that way at all.
During the Vietnam war, we who were against it held "Teach-in's" prior to anti-war demonstrations. We put on regular clothes, pantyhose and dresses for the women, tie for the men, and talked to groups of people about the wrong-ness of the war, how it evolved and so forth. If we presented ourselves as patriotic Americans who loved our country but wanted to change its direction and stop an unjust war, we won a number of converts who showed up to march with us.
If we went in with our "hippie" clothes and trashed the US in a self-righteous way, calling for support for the North Vietnamese, calling US soldiers and LBJ/Nixon war criminals, we got nowhere. People would get up and leave, or call us un-American. They would, as Jen said, go into defensive mode.
Many of here in the US, and certainly many of us here on these pages, are loyal Americans and are also appalled by the actions of our government. We are actively working to change the death penalty, the wholesale imprisonment of people for drug offenses, the glorification of the Cowboy mentality. Yet, being loyal Americans, we, or I, I am offended by the barrage of anti-American sentiment.
Do you want to persuade us, and educate us about the role the US plays on the international stage? Dio did that very nicely in a statement on another thread.
Or do you wish to club us over the head and watch us fall into the arms of RedstateRandy, a nice guy, but one who, I suspect, is more "shoot first ask questions later" than I.
That can't have been an easy thing to say, and I do so appreciate it.
I want to be clear, here and now, that the entry I'll be posting isn't a response to you specifically and certainly isn't intended to suggest that you are blindly anti-American. This whole conversation has got me thinking about some of the criticisms of the US, some of the problems with it, and some of the parallels with other places, and I feel a need to talk about that.
Not that I`ve been following this with more than a passing interest, but it was my understanding that people put themselves between him and the soldiers, rather than him using them as human shields.
I think your Vietnam protest example is right on the money; it's a good analogy generally, AND it speaks to the fact that a country may be very divided about foreign policy, violence, and war. Thus, it both provides a better strategy from the "educating people" perspective and demonstrates why attacking all Americans (or all anyones) because of government actions abroad is not just a theoretical logical fallacy but actually and actively unjust.
Wow! Just in between, still reading, let me tell you I'm very happy how this thread is running now! Thank you all. I need more time to read and understand.
Bennett, you beat me to correcting myself. Bragging isn't an admissible confession, and even if it were, it would need corroborating testimony or at least to include details only the authorities and the perpetrator could know. At least, that it's the case in the US legal system. I wonder how international law handles such things. It seems possible that he could have been acquitted. Wow.
Ulla, I'm glad the discussion seems productive. I agree with your implied idea that it's important to have honest discussions about difficult topics, especially for people who disagree to have them.
am not letting anything go and neither is the rest of the world
AntwortenLöschenhope he gets impeached for this and other crimes
enjoy your view
I love it!!!!! Thanks, Jen!! This is especially good for those Americans who feel there is no difference between Bush and Obama!!
AntwortenLöschenImpeached? The Americans are eating this up (ok, maybe not all) but there is no way he will be impeached. Even arch-villain Rush Limbaugh sent congrats to the Prez. TURN THE PAGE!!
AntwortenLöschenThey can impeach him after they try and execute Bush, et al for war crimes.
AntwortenLöschenI had fun with this ...
Now... since i have a LIFE, i'll be letting it GO!
Headed out to a party... Movin on!
Seeyas!
LOL!
AntwortenLöschenYep!
TURN THE PAGE!
Love that!
YADA
AntwortenLöschenYADA
YADA.....
Party on, Y'all!
kill 6 month old kids and yell usa
AntwortenLöschengood party occasion
Black Agenda Report
AntwortenLöschenNews, analysis and commentary from the black left
Killing Gaddafi's Grandbabies
http://www.blackagendareport.com/content/killing-gaddafis-grandbabies
It should be noted that in the Middle East, though there is hardly any love for America, there is also gladness that Bin Laden is dead.
AntwortenLöschenIt should be noted that in the Middle East, though there is hardly any love for America, there is also gladness that Bin Laden is dead.
AntwortenLöschenHe's dead.
AntwortenLöschenI'm glad.
Next.
SO DID I! From top to bottom..............How the detractors can't see the difference is preposterious! They don't want to see!
AntwortenLöschenI say it again, there's a deep gap about it between US-patriots and the rest of the world. You may keep it in mind or not. We will see the consequences. I wish we can come to a state of understanding and co-operation again. Everything else would be disastrous.
AntwortenLöschenReally? Well understand............I didn't like what was done to the US on 9/11 and I won't ever forget that! .We may see the consequences ........I'm just glad THEY DID! That from me who is really a PEACEABLE MAN!
AntwortenLöschenWe won't either. USA had full solidarity, even from Moslem counties. But after that things went wrong.
AntwortenLöschenANOTHER THREAT??????????????????????????????
AntwortenLöschenI think there's some confusion here about what "U. S. patriot" means. The people who scream the loudest aren't supposed to win just because they're noisy. This right-wing, bigoted, warmonger as patriot stuff is as bad as the way everyone has come to associate both theism and atheism with fundamentalists because it's the fundamentalists who do all that shouting in that arena. A true patriot is someone who wants to keep what works and change what doesn't, not someone who blindly insists that his or her country can do no wrong--and that's regardless of country. Calling people who enable and even elevate what's worst about their country is (pardon the children's book analogy, but it's too apt to pass up) like assuming that the Dursleys from the Harry Potter books are the quintessence of "good parenting" because they say, loudly and often, that they love their Duddikins and are good parents. Baglava, if you were using three phrase as a sarcastic jab at people who call themselves patriots but won't admit there is anything wrong with the country, I apologize for agreeing with you in a way that sounded like a correction; it's just they so many people DO mistake the fools for patriots because they keep saying that's what they are.
AntwortenLöschenIMO, part of trying to fix what's wrong with one's country is not standing quietly by while false patriots put the needs or desires of its people ahead of those of the rest of the world.
Carina, I don't doubt that there are people who deny the role the U.S. played in helping to make bin Laden what he was. To suggest that he is somehow, therefore, not culpable for his actions or that a country shouldn't address a problem it *helped* to create is naïve. The U.S. also helped create the problem of Israel. I, for one, would like to see my country do something about that mess it helped to create. I guess, though, you would say that giving Israel less support and being very firm about the need for a recognition of Palestinian rights and Palestinian sovereignty would be reason to impeach whatever president did out, because previous presidents helped create the problem. Is that right? That would be consistent with the position you seem to be taking here.
If you'd have it one way for bin Laden (hands off, it was your fault to begin with) and another for Israel (do something about them, this is your fault), then I'm not surprised you're getting scant attention and quick dismissals from Americans. We are up to our necks in hypocrites who overgeneralize about others and make idiotic claims about what it means to be American without paying attention to more hypocrisy, overgeneralization, and ridiculous assertions about American-ness.
Of course, it's possible you're really coming from the POV that what bin Laden did was justified. In that case, feel free to take personal responsibility for whatever your government does wrong, even if you opposthe wrong action, the government itself, or both. I'll have patience with people who want to punish me for the actions of people I voted against or who were in office before I could vote--well, I never will. But I'd be a lot less impatient if they were bankrupting themselves and risking the health and lives of their families along with their own to make amends for actions they did not support and could not prevent. But I will never advocate killing them or be happy if they are killed.
But then, I don't think of any country as a monolith. If I did, I might be for killing all the people of countries when I disagreed with things their countries did. That is EXACTLY the same kind of thinking that less to hate crimes against Muslims: They're all alike, Those People. Whether you support what bin Laden did or not--and I assume as well as hope that you do not--your comments here seem to have a little of that "they're all alike" flavor when it comes to Americans.
Many Americans acknowledge the role the US played in creating Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden and the Shah of Iran. We acknowledge the role of "the West" in creating the problems of the middle east. We have varying feelings about Israel, even those of us who recognize the injustices of the Palestinian situation. I cannot speak for all my countrymen.
AntwortenLöschenHow far back shall we go in pointing fingers? To the invention of cordite prior to The Great War? To the participants of the Second World War and the persecution and genocide of the Jews? To the Russian invasion of Afghanistan? We all have "blood on our hands". The US, Russia, Great Britain, Germany and on.
Pointing fingers solves little. Self-righteous disdain of another country's actions solves nothing. To paraphrase, if we want justice, we need to work for peace.
Amen to that!
AntwortenLöschenThank you Karen and Bennett both for your clarifying explanations. It is true, Karen, from outside we often oversee that beyond the unnerving noise of the false patriots we overhear the more silent voices of the true patriots. I wholeheartedly agree to your definition of both.
AntwortenLöschenI suddenly understood that we in Germany have had our full share of false patriotism and more of that last century. I mean not only the Nazi-time, but also the authoritarian, illiberal Empire before. We learned loud patriotism is something to distrust, because it led us into a disaster. So you will find true patriots here as silent working as probably everywhere, but only few of the loud, demonstrative patriotic behavior. We just find it peculiar, except in a kind version at soccer championships. ;-)
Another point that makes the killing of Bin Laden so hard to accept for many of us is the fact that we don't have death penalty in Europe. As far as I know it even is a condition for a country, that wants to become a member of the EU, to abolish death penalty. Most of us see death penalty as a barbaric ritual, not acceptable for a modern humanist society. So I guess US citizens can easier accept killing as a punishment than Europeans, because they accept death penalty.
Bennett, I also can agree to what you wrote especially to your last sentence "To paraphrase, if we want justice, we need to work for peace." Yesssss!
Actually, many of us are against the death penalty, which is why we do have ambivilance about this. I think that BinLaden is seen as someone who did such a horrific thing, then planned to do more, even broadcast his plans in frequent videos that seemed to mock our feelings and flaunt his ability to allude capture.The notion of self defense might also play a role.. "get him before he has a chance to get us...AGAIN.
AntwortenLöschenPlus the serious danger he presented and the prospect of not only a show trial that would likely take years and present a target for terrorists wherever he was held.
I think the majority of us were not celebrating as much as breathing a sigh of relief.
I think that constant barrage of anti-American sentiment posted here drove many of us who might tend to agree with the concerns expressed about American aggression into a defensive mode that had us aligned with the likes of those "loud" patriots who are the "America can do no wrong" crowd. I don't think any of the posters here think that way at all.
Yes. I can say more on this later.
AntwortenLöschenDuring the Vietnam war, we who were against it held "Teach-in's" prior to anti-war demonstrations. We put on regular clothes, pantyhose and dresses for the women, tie for the men, and talked to groups of people about the wrong-ness of the war, how it evolved and so forth. If we presented ourselves as patriotic Americans who loved our country but wanted to change its direction and stop an unjust war, we won a number of converts who showed up to march with us.
AntwortenLöschenIf we went in with our "hippie" clothes and trashed the US in a self-righteous way, calling for support for the North Vietnamese, calling US soldiers and LBJ/Nixon war criminals, we got nowhere. People would get up and leave, or call us un-American. They would, as Jen said, go into defensive mode.
Many of here in the US, and certainly many of us here on these pages, are loyal Americans and are also appalled by the actions of our government. We are actively working to change the death penalty, the wholesale imprisonment of people for drug offenses, the glorification of the Cowboy mentality. Yet, being loyal Americans, we, or I, I am offended by the barrage of anti-American sentiment.
Do you want to persuade us, and educate us about the role the US plays on the international stage? Dio did that very nicely in a statement on another thread.
Or do you wish to club us over the head and watch us fall into the arms of RedstateRandy, a nice guy, but one who, I suspect, is more "shoot first ask questions later" than I.
I mean I really don't even have to enter this discussion. This is pretty awesome when the left gets it.
AntwortenLöschenThe "left" is getting it because the 'right" has given the world the wrong perception of what patriotic Americans look and sound like.
AntwortenLöschenThat can't have been an easy thing to say, and I do so appreciate it.
AntwortenLöschenI want to be clear, here and now, that the entry I'll be posting isn't a response to you specifically and certainly isn't intended to suggest that you are blindly anti-American. This whole conversation has got me thinking about some of the criticisms of the US, some of the problems with it, and some of the parallels with other places, and I feel a need to talk about that.
Not that I`ve been following this with more than a passing interest, but it was my understanding that people put themselves between him and the soldiers, rather than him using them as human shields.
AntwortenLöschenExcelllent comment, Bennett.
AntwortenLöschenI think your Vietnam protest example is right on the money; it's a good analogy generally, AND it speaks to the fact that a country may be very divided about foreign policy, violence, and war. Thus, it both provides a better strategy from the "educating people" perspective and demonstrates why attacking all Americans (or all anyones) because of government actions abroad is not just a theoretical logical fallacy but actually and actively unjust.
If you fall into Randy's arms, I want a picture.
Quoting problem. I'll try again.
AntwortenLöschenI don't think he meant "gets it" as in "gets attacked." I think he meant "gets it" as in "understands."
AntwortenLöschenOr did I not "get" your comment? Or Randy, did I not "get" yours?
I wonder if that could be proven in a Court of Law. Any court.
AntwortenLöschenI suppose that would depend on whether the confessions he made were admissible.
AntwortenLöschenWhat confessions?
AntwortenLöschenWow! Just in between, still reading, let me tell you I'm very happy how this thread is running now! Thank you all. I need more time to read and understand.
AntwortenLöschenBennett, you beat me to correcting myself. Bragging isn't an admissible confession, and even if it were, it would need corroborating testimony or at least to include details only the authorities and the perpetrator could know. At least, that it's the case in the US legal system. I wonder how international law handles such things. It seems possible that he could have been acquitted. Wow.
AntwortenLöschenUlla, I'm glad the discussion seems productive. I agree with your implied idea that it's important to have honest discussions about difficult topics, especially for people who disagree to have them.
AntwortenLöschen