Look... even the most anti-Muslim members we have, the most devout Evangelicals and Zionist Jews, the most hardened and ardent vets who are fully behind 'the Great War on Terror'... even you must realise that a public Quran burning on the anniversary of the 9-11 attacks, is just chucking petrol on the fires of hatred, division and bigotry? Privately you might think it's hilarious, a sweet victory against your perceived enemy... but even then you can't possibly call this 'constructive', beneficial to a wider peace and understanding? Ok, so it might get some attention for Pastor Terry Jones' Gainesville, Florida church... fast becoming almost as big a name as New York's Park 51 community centre... and someone somewhere will make money from this. But that's all it is, a cynical ploy to use the memory of that tragedy for profit. It's morally sick, and demonstrates just how little 'Holy Spirit' there is in that branch of religion.
I saw a blog by a friend in New Zealand this morning, who suggested it might be an idea if those of us around the world who find this particularly offensive might burn an American flag or similar symbol...? How about a Bible... not a KJV, must be the modern US version, I forget what they call it. Offended? Good. As it turns out, a UK Islamic radical has called for exactly that, on Saturday, outside the US Embassy in London - flags, at least. Unfortunately, I'll be down the coast, otherwise I'd be up there with the camera.
President Obama has, I think sensibly, called it an 'al Qaeda recruitment bonanza'. A man who understands, then, that violence breeds violence. Not much more violent symbolism than setting fire to a Holy book... makes one think of the Dark Ages, or book-burnings in Communist Russia.
Now... what else can I say? I don't want to go that step too far, lest I be as bad as Pastor Jones. I could get right behind the flag-burning... but that's divisive and hateful.
3,000 human beings died in those towers. Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Atheists among them.
Indiscriminate violence against a symbol of Capitalism - 'The Great Satan'.
Three trillion dollars of war followed, and many more than 3,000 dead civilians and troops.
Personally, if some activist burns Terry Jones' church to the ground, I will smile. But I will keep that smile to myself. Violence against the man himself, or his congregation, I do not wish for.
How about we all commemorate September 11th, if at all, the correct way?
Wage Peace.
Today is Jewish New Year I believe? Rosh Hanash :)
thanks
AntwortenLöschenEvolution has a way of weeding those from the gene pool that are foolish enough to step in front of oncoming trains.
AntwortenLöschenI bet someone someplace has already started giving odds on how many hours after the Quran burning the church will be transformed into rubble. Not to say that I approve of that, but I do think he is tempting fate and unnecessarily making himself and his church members a target for radicals. Personally, I think it is foolish to taunt people if you genuinely believe they are dangerous.
You raise some very interesting questions.
AntwortenLöschenPersonally the guys a quack, however, the situation points out some issues.
How people act, respond to, being offended.
" those of us around the world who find this particularly offensive might burn an American flag or similar symbol...? How about a Bible..", to me that says more about your intolerance than it says about the Bible or the flag. I may be offended so i would pray for you. That would be it.
What is the difference between offending people by building a Mosque at ground zero, and offending people by burning the "Quran ".? Is one peoples offense worth more than another?
I heard a radio interview of this Pastor Terry Jones yesterday. He is not an ordained minister, and started his own group with 50 members. He said if Muslims decide not to build the Mosque he would decide not to burn a Quran. Who decides who's insult hurts others more?
How people respond to adversity reflects on them the same way those committing offenses are a product of the offense themselves. Who is wrong?
In this case, there is no laws broken, same as with the Mosque, I watch to see people respond from the teachings of their religions on both issues. After all, both are religious symbols aren't they. The only difference being who is offended.
Do not get me wrong. I do not condone these actions. I do however control my own emotions.
That was suggested, as I wrote, by another blogger, and by a British Islamic radical, respectively. It was not my suggestion. I regard myself as standing outside of all of this, being non-religious, and there is a streak of dark humour in me... while of course I don't laugh at the WTC tragedy itself, I can laugh at how stupid and petty religious folks' behaviour can be. In my opinion. My suggestion of using an American - New Standard edition? - Bible, was targeted black humour, the intended audience being those who would be inclined to agree with me.
AntwortenLöschenI also went on to point out that were I to 'get fully behind' the flag-burning, I would be behaving in as negative a manner as Pastor Jones.
Intolerant? Well, I do not respect religion, let's put it that way. I think they/you will get us all killed if religion gets its way. I wish it would just go away and keep its nose out of politics, law and so on.
Yes, burning a Koran is much worse than building that community centre in New York (it is not a Mosque and it is not at Ground Zero). The former is a deliberately hateful and provocative act. If you read Jan's blog here on the Park 51 building, you will see that it's intent is not to be hateful and provocative. I applaud the apparent status quo in NYC, that they seem to have moved on and can embrace such a cultural symbol in that part of the city. I understand some people's objection... but it's a step in the right direction, I feel, toward building bridges and 'waging peace'.
I hold my hands up to being a bit of a rabble-rouser in my limited way. By all means pray for me if it makes you feel better.
I think that WHO is offended is less important than WHY they are offended. In other words...Is there a reasonable basis for why they are offended?
AntwortenLöschenSuppose that someone was offended by red shirts, we could all stop wearing red shirts to avoid offense. The same would hold true for blue, green, orange, and purple shirts, etc. Ultimately, if you follow that idea to its logical conclusion, we would all be naked because someone somewhere might find our choice of clothing offensive. But, in taking that course, we would offend those who find public nakedness offensive. So, we still could not reach the goal of being completely free of all possible offensiveness....so that isn't a very realistic goal.
On the other hand, if we try to avoid things that experience has show typically cause offense (profanity, insults, demeaning remarks) then we have a lot better chance of a peaceful society wherein we can still have the freedom to live without obsessing over perceived offensiveness.
People who are offended by a mosque a few blocks away from the site of the world trade center may be sincere in their belief that it is offensive to them, but the reason WHY they are offended is not because the building was being built for the express purpose of causing offense. However, burning religious books is not merely exercising your own beliefs, but done explicitly to disparage other people's beliefs. The reason for this is that the book is not the religion...it is a symbol of the religion and defacing it is a symbolic gesture against the religion. There is nothing within any branch of Christianity that necessitates the practice of burning Qu'rans. So, burning the book is not a religious exercise, but rather a free speech exercise. Within our free speech laws, there is a concept of "fighting words" that describes situations in which words are so inflammatory that they incite or provoke others. Whether or not the act of burning religious books would fall into that came category of inciting others to react, is a question that could only be answered by a judge...but it is similar.
Returning to your question then....it isn't who is offended, but why they are offended that matters most. If they are offended because they have set up some arbitrary distance limit in their own mind for a building that is one thing. If they are offended because someone went out of their way to intentionally cause offense by selecting a symbol of their religion and desecrating it...then that is another. The first situation is a person exercising their own beliefs which may or may not coincidentally offend others...the other is a case where the offense was intentional and the symbolic act was specifically chosen because it was intended to send an offensive message.
So it all boils down to the intent of the person who built the building or burned the book. If the act is done specifically for the purpose of offending (rather than just incidentally causing offense) then it should be condemned as divisive.
The fact that Jones' church can be called a 'cult', and is rather small, reminds me that there are also many, many different 'cults' and denominations within Islam, some rather more peaceful and spiritual than others.
AntwortenLöschenI figure I can be allowed to paint all US Christianity with the same brush... after all, the 'phobes never seem to make any effort to recognise that there are different kinds of Muslim?
Same with Atheists, even. You might call an 'agnostic' a fence-sitting pussy, unable to choose and stand by their conviction. I'm not agnostic. I think the concept of a supreme being is absolutely ridiculous and should be regarded with comedic scorn.
Exactly, and he has every right to do it at this time. Even if it's a crazy senseless act of ignorance. My confusion lies in why anyone would care, give him press, make him a star. I would ignore him, he does not matter. What would his actions change in the lives of those offended. He is cashing in on the attention and money that simply acknowledging him gives him. That may be his goal.$$
AntwortenLöschenIf that is his goal he is sorely disappointed. Almost immediately after he pulled this stunt, his mortgage company demanded immediate payment in full of his $140,000 mortgage and his property insurance was cancelled. I have a feeling that the bank and insurance companies now consider him at higher risk of property damage.
AntwortenLöschenDo you think, government pressure is responsible for that? ( Joe the plumber syndrome.)
AntwortenLöschenRequests for interviews is skyrocketing. How this all equals out is yet unknown.
What else is new: Muslim initiates “Burn the Stars and Stripes Day”
AntwortenLöschenhttp://michellemalkin.com/2010/09/09/what-else-is-new-muslim-initiates-burn-the-stars-and-stripes-day/
My point is proven.
Now, Do you think i care?
karma
AntwortenLöschenI think the Bible you're thinking of is the NIV, or New International Version.
AntwortenLöschenI could get behind a Bible burning sooner than a flag-burning. While Jones doesn't represent either Americans or Christians as a whole, he is doing this as an official function of his church, not his country. He is using his religion to attack another religion. But of course, I can't get behind any retaliatory burnings, because what we do as people isn't about who other people are; it's about who we are. And I like to think that sane people aren't anything like honorary-doctor Jones.
remixedphoenix saidI figure I can be allowed to paint all US Christianity with the same brush... after all, the 'phobes never seem to make any effort to recognise that there are different kinds of Muslim?
Naturally, I think the same goes for painting all members of any religion with a broad brush. I understand the temptation, but I think you're a better critical thinker than that (by which I mean that you may want to *say* all Christians are the same, but I don't believe you really think it).
For my money, all of the ostentatious Islam-bashing is throwing petrol on the fire. If a group feels discriminated against, discriminating against it is not going to make things better.
And, sadly, the same for white, fundamentalist, Christian conservatives, who do (however inexplicably to the rest of us) feel that they're being oppressed. I think we need to oppose them vocally but not use their tactics.
I honestly don't understand the thinking that goes like this: I feel disenfranchised or oppressed because someone else is included. I have the right to be included and heard--so "they" should shut up and go away. And that thinking seems to be at the core of the worldview of people like Jones and his followers. How do you deal with a logical nightmare like that, in which people don't realize that *they* have freedoms only because *everyone* has freedoms? Comedic scorn may well be part of the answer. But expressions of retaliatory rage, however much we may all feel it, are probably counterproductive.
After all, we are talking about people who have less intellectual heft than the average six-year-old, who can understand that he or she only gets the same privileges as all the other six-year-olds.
Btw, Multiply says there's a slideshow, but I can only see one photo.
AntwortenLöschenAnd--did Jones get up one morning and think "I just have to look the part" or what?
I will repeat here what I put on another blog. We have an Islamic center in a nearby university area. I intend to call them and offer support to them and tell them I am not part of the haters. I will encourage my friends to do the same. I will eat at the Middle Estern restaurant that was trashed after 9/11 and which has since hung American flags all over (I presume in self-defense).
AntwortenLöschenWe need to be vocal to the Muslim world that the actions of one man in Florida are not the actions of most of us. We need to let the Muslim world know (or our little part of it) that we oppose bigotry.
Is it okay if I post your idea about expressing support to local mosques on Facebook?
AntwortenLöschenbennett1 saidI will eat at the Middle Estern restaurant that was trashed after 9/11 and which has since hung American flags all over (I presume in self-defense).
Aasif Maandvi standing there in a suit with an American flag on the back and saying he resents having had to buy it wasn't too far off, was he? Of course, he was talking about Revolution Islam, but it's a circular process of hate, and anywhere you touch the circle, you touch one of the reasons that that restaurant was trashed and has had to cover itself in American flags.
Your comments about patronizing that restaurant led me to decide to ask my local mosque if there are any businesses that are suffering because of the intolerance that I can support with my business.
Of course, I realize it may take a trip to an Islamic center--or more--to prove my bona fides. Because what's to stop an idiot bigot from calling and asking that question to get a list of targets?
Please do. I keep a much lower profile on FB, however, so call me a "friend".
AntwortenLöschenYou support not burning the book, or them burning the flag, or just whatever they do?
AntwortenLöschenIt sounds to me very much as if she supports not assuming that all members of any one group are alike, from her wording:
AntwortenLöschen". . . . the actions of one man in Florida are not the actions of most of us . . . ."
Is this man literate enough to know a Quran when he sees one? Or will he simply burn a porn tract in Arabic if one was handed to him and he was informed that it was the Evil Muslim Book? I wonder!
AntwortenLöschen"Goosestepping morons should be reading books, not burning them!" ~ Sean Connery as Henry Jones Sr. in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.
AntwortenLöschenYes, or you wouldn't be here, commenting about it.
AntwortenLöschenVery interesting idea there, Bill. Also, if as many people as possible could send him a Qur'an, I mean in their tens of thousands, it would cost him to dispose of all the unwanted books and make a great obstruction outside his church.
AntwortenLöschenDid he go through with it? You know... I haven't even checked. Turkey, North Korea, Russia etc have been far more interesting news this weekend. And my old local team won 3-0 :)
I only care that my point is proved. You probably missed that.
AntwortenLöschenI don't miss much on here, if anything. Don't come here with preconceived ideas about me and a hostile attitude (though thus far the dissent has been welcome - I spoke to Ayla, she's on the same back foot you seem to be)... if there isn't going to be any 'conversation', you will quickly leave by the same door you came in. I'm as yet to be satisfied that your - both of you - agenda is one of enriching your own viewpoints by hearing those of others and discussing issues. I tried some private honesty and was meant with a blunt 'your opinion doesn't matter' type comment. But that's someone else, not you.
AntwortenLöschenPlease - tell me WHY you would think I 'probably missed that'? Or leave. Either, I don't mind.
not 'meant', * met
AntwortenLöschenBecause of your sarcastic remark to me. The comment i made was on the American flag burning day. I don't care if they hold it and burn the flag, seriously, it would only show their attitude, not mine. It certainly would not force me to respond, or change my life in any way. So, i would not care.
AntwortenLöschenThis guy, I don't know. Now if it were Glenn Beck we were talking about, nah, he wouldn't know the difference.
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