Bosnian Serbs guilty of burnings
Milan Lukic (left) and his cousin Sredoje burnt Bosniak Muslims alive |
Two Bosnian Serb commanders have been found guilty of war crimes, including burning women and children alive, during the Bosnian civil war.
Cousins Milan and Sredoje Lukic were members of a paramilitary group called the White Eagles, or the Avengers.
They were accused of murder, persecution, extermination and other inhumane acts against Bosnian Muslims near Visegrad between 1992 and 1994.
Judges at The Hague jailed Milan Lukic for life, and Sredoje to 30 years.
Judge Patrick Robinson, reading his verdict, said: "The perpetration by Milan Lukic and Stredoje Lukic of crimes in this case is characterised by a callous and vicious disregard for human life."
The burning alive of Muslims, he said, was extraordinarily brutal, and "exemplified the worst acts of humanity that one person may inflict on others".
Ringleader
The court ruled that Milan Lukic, the leader of the White Eagles paramilitary force, was the ringleader of the attacks.
| WHITE EAGLES Paramilitary group in Bosnian conflict in early 1990s Accused of ethnic cleansing of Muslims near Visegrad Worked with Bosnian Serb police and army units Also known as the "Avengers" |
He herded about 130 women, children and elderly men in to two houses - both in or near the eastern Bosnian town of Visegrad - before setting fire to them.
All those who tried to escape were shot.
He was also found guilty of murdering 12 Muslim civilian men, and beating Muslims at a detention camp.
Sredoje Lukic was found guilty of aiding and abetting one of the house fires.
Prosecutors told the tribunal that the White Eagles carried out a campaign of ethnic cleaning.
One prosecutor, Dermot Groome, said the cousins took part in a "widespread and systematic attack on the civilian population".
Top fugitives
The cousins had denied the charges at their trial at the International War Crimes Tribunal at The Hague, which ended in May.
The defence had called for an acquittal because of what it called "inconsistencies" in the prosecution evidence.
But the court found the testimonies of surviving witnesses to be credible.
In 2005, Milan and Sredoje Lukic were two of The Hague tribunal's top fugitives.
Milan Lukic, 41, went on the run for seven years after being indicted on war crimes charges, but was arrested in Argentina in August 2005 and was handed over to the tribunal after being extradited.
Sredoje Lukic, 48, surrendered to the Bosnian Serb authorities the following month.
real animals what more is there to say except they should have been burnt at the stack -
AntwortenLöschenAnimals have more respect for their own.
AntwortenLöschenThese are demons.
AntwortenLöschenHang Em!
AntwortenLöschen*and people bitch about the USA pouring water on terrorists to gain information*
Where is the european self righteous outrage about these ass hats?
Well take them out the back when nobody's looking. ..
AntwortenLöschenWe have to deal with Blair first.
dieing would be too easy for this kind of scum. Let them know the impact of what they have done... send them to jail in Bosnia and make sure that their guards are from the same groups they treated so badly... and give the guards cart-blanche to do what they like so long as they stay alive. Payback would be the bitch!!!
AntwortenLöschenThere is an international court for these crimes in The Hague, Netherlands. http://www.icj-cij.org/homepage/index.php?lang=en
AntwortenLöschenIt would be quite a progress when the USA would acknowledge and join!
Because of how I'm viewing posts today, mobile, selected groups, I came to this immediately after a load of anti-Muslim posts on Randy's group. See for yourselves.
AntwortenLöschenThanks G. The 16 year wait makes me hopeful regarding certain other war criminals
This whole Yugoslavia thing is a real shame on the European countries.
AntwortenLöschenRight in there backyard, they silently watched and wished that the Serbian nationalists FINALLY eradicate (ethnic cleansing) the last remnants of Islam in Europe.
I am not exaggerating.
I am 100% convinced about that.
While all were paying lip service to humanity and empathy, the actions were the opposite.
The shame is so great that the Dutch government was forced to resign for having cheated their own people.
The French, in their usual arrogance, proclaimed to defend the "Western Ethics" via the UNPROFOR. As it turned out, it was used totally for the opposite purpose: To round up the Muslims of Yugoslavia and surrender them to the Serbian Military.
And they call themselves "EU"? What EU?
Here are the few names of shame for mankind I can cite off my head:
Butros Butros-Ghali (Egypt), the then Sec Gen of the UN
General Janvier (France), commander general of the UNPROFOR
Colonel Thomas Karremans (The Netherlands) responsible to "protect" the Bosnians
I am not mentioning the Serbians because they could not have done that much without the tacit approval of the UE and the UN.
Shame on EU. Shame on the French.
My gratitude to the Dutch people for having held their government responsible for that shame.
If anyone cares, here is a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre
I am open to counter-views. So, do not be shy.
BTW, those massacres were "sanctified" by the Serbian Orthodox Church.
Sick.
Compared to Americans, the Europeans have historically been much more hostile towards Islam but because of the US's more pro-active and aggressive foreign policies that country has received much harsher criticism from the Muslim world; but gurcanaral said it just right, the Europeans actually made an attempt to wipe out Islam from Europe. The Balkans may have been Europe's backyard but what are the Europeans going to do about increasing Muslim immigration into their own countries?
AntwortenLöschenYes, it is.
AntwortenLöschenIt also shows the failure of politics long before it came to a war. When I remember well it was the German foreign minister Dietrich Genscher who couldn't fast enough convince the European countries to acknowledge the small provinces that were split by their nationalist and/or racist leaders from the Yugoslavian republic, Croatia and Slovenia. It was obvious that Bosnia and Macedonia would follow and that it would cause ethnically and territorial conflicts in the whole region.
Later I read an analysis that the European countries, given the choice between a strong or a weak Balkan, preferred to weaken it. To me it makes sense, not that I'm proud of it.
Another point is the role of Serbia. I don't think the Serbs were the bad guys and the others were the good ones. This is propaganda. There has been ethnically polarizing, inflammatory politics and massacres from every side. Europe needed a bad boy to have somebody to fight against, because we were not able to handle the conflict with civil methods. The Serbs just did, what they always had done during Tito era: they tried to keep the ethnics and provinces together, under their leadership, of course.
Completely agree! Someone needs to find the spine that Europe lost.
AntwortenLöschenIts not just a European thing, the whole world should hang its head in shame, not just for this conflict, but for many others. Including:
AntwortenLöschenRwanda
Somalia
Burma
Tibet
Chechnya
Georgia
Turkmenistan
Zimbabwe
China
DRC
Ivory Coast
Ethiopia
There are many other example of well reported conflicts and regimes where human rights have been ignored for whatever reason.
There are many reasons for ignoring suffering, but no excuses.
Of course Americans are much better! No? Africans? Asians? Indians? Polynesians? Armenians? Who else? What kind of ethnically, cultural or whatever charge against what is this? I am disappointed, as well!
AntwortenLöschenAd nauseam..................
AntwortenLöschenThat may well have been true before the first world war, and with some fascist regimes up to the end of the second world war, but it is far from the truth for the majority of the Europeans now.
AntwortenLöschenWhat went on in the Balkans is nothing short of shameful, there were political maneuvers which were nothing to do with the welfare of the people there.
There were attempts to broker a peace, the Vance-Owen plan with former US Secretary of State Cyrus Vance and Lord Owen was realistically dead before it was accepted by the UN such was the speed of the 'Ethnic cleansing' in the former Yugoslavia. Other plans were drawn up, but it was not until the UN and NATO committed troops and aircraft that things started to improve, it is still far from finished and tensions there still turn bloody on a regular basis, but at a much lower level than at the height of the conflict.
Sadly, although the US, EU and UN all tried to do things to stop the conflict, they were all woefully inadequate not for lack of will, but for lack of comprehension of the sheer level of inhumanity and hatred unleashed in the country following the fall of the Warsaw Pact lead government.
I beg to differ.
AntwortenLöschenMy observations indicate that, on the contrary, there was a "unified will" to see the Serbs cleans the last remnants of the Ottoman Muslims.
Hence, although a lot of words have been spoken, no action was taken.
"Let us just wait until they are done away by the Serbs. Afterwards, we will blame it all upon them."
Not much different than the Arab countries remaining silent when Israel attacked the Hamas. They all were hoping that Israel would decimate Hamas' power.
What a shame to form a UNPROFOR (UN Protection Forces), who's net mission was to round up Bosnian men by tricking them into believing that the UN would "protect" them, and hand them over to the Serbian military to get them massacred. And all that happening in front of the whole world.
Leaving those young men on their own was "counterproductive", because, in spite of their deprived position, they were still defending themselves, making it difficult for the Serbian Army.
Hence, the EU, under the canopy of UN, decided to provide further help to the Serbian Army:
"Let us gather them in our concentration camps. Then you can have them."
And so it was.
I commend the Dutch people for standing up to this most immoral and heinous plot.
I shun the rest of Europe, in particular the French, for shrugging their shoulders and ignoring this as a responsibility.
It was so OBVIOUS what the unspoken scheme was.
Everyone knew that the Bosnians did not have arms to fight for their lives. And that the Serbian Army had the latest of Soviet arms up to their neck.
Yet, the UN and the EU imposed an embargo on Bosnians preventing them from retrieving arms.
How much more disgusting can it get?
It is like letting two gladiators fight each other out, but one is armed to the teeth, and the other has his hands tied in his back.
And you call all this "It happened so fast that..t EU could not act"?
I thought EU was ready to act on a minutes notice against a hostility from Yugoslavia.
Not just that. Austria and Germany hastily recognizing Croatia and Slovenia, thus having them under their wings... That happened beforehand. Why? Cuz Croatia and Slovenia used to be former territories of the Austro-Hungarian Empire (pre WW-I). They did not even consult other EU countries.
In response, the UK attempted to extend some kind of a protection over Serbia, because during WW-II they had helped the British against the Germans. And the Croats had helped Germans.
Where is the "civilized" Europe?
All that pride, all the books written, all the grandiose words spoken, all the movies made...they all have turned out to be hollow like a rotten tree trunk. All of that was just a facade. A make believe.
I have been to "primitive" people. Yet, they still had an intuition to provide help to those disadvantaged, albeit third parties.
Yet, the EU, found a great opportunity in keeping the Bosnians starves and unarmed. Not just that, they militarily prevented ANY arms flow to Bosnians.
Come explain to me how that was an act of being "too slow".
It is hard for me to say these words without choking:
The Bosnians, men, women and children, killed with the assistance and tacit approval of the EU, have nevertheless accomplished a great victory: They kicked down the rotten trunk of the European pretense of being the beacon of civilization.
May they all rest in peace.
The fact of the EU, UN, NATO and US all being too slow to act is a given, as to the political motives behind this, that would be speculation. All of the posturing and politics which went on between the powers with influence was of little comfort to those who were being killed and the initial UN deployment was woeful in its efforts to protect the Bosnians.
AntwortenLöschenThroughout Tito's time in power, all of the ethnic groups in Yugoslavia were held down with force and the centuries long rivalries were left to fester, it was just months after the fall of the wall when all this kicked off. I am not convinced that the ottomans or even the austro-Hungarian influences had much to do with the reaction of the rest of Europe, there were two rather large wars which changed the way of European politics. However, those ethnic roots were clearly very much at the root of the internal conflict.
I am not dismissing your position, but I need to do some more research about this before I can fully accept all that you have said.
You don't have to. These forums are there to motivate people to do their own research. Without that, why would anyone change his/her view? Because someone else said they should?
AntwortenLöschenI have listed my very bitter observations. I have quite a collection of material on this matter. But, nowadays, all that takes is to take a look at Wikipedia under "Srebrenica Massacre" and go from there.
There is also a wonderful (and very heart-wrenching) documentary called "A cry from the grave", first broadcast by BBC and then followed by WGBH Boston.
A wonderful documentary. Watch it if you can stand it.
Unfortunately, that program is NOT being broadcast again. Not only that, its video is NOT for sale either. I wonder why... (No, not really, I know why. It bothers a lot of governments. That is why)
I have a bootleg copy.
If anyone is interested, I can mail you a copy for my cost.
The "Bosnians" are called "the Turks", by Serbians (Orthodox) and the Croatians (Catholic), because they are Muslims. They have nothing to do with Turks in an ethnic sense. Instead, during the many centuries of the Ottoman rule, some people have converted to Islam, possibly because it was "advantageous" then. Other alternatives are abound: small settlements of Ottoman officials marry locals and thus grow over time.
That I leave to anthropologists.
The reality of today is that most Bosnians and Albanians, and Macedonians, and Kosovans are diaspora of the collapsed Ottoman Empire.
A very large number of them have actually emigrated to the ever shrinking Ottoman Empire then, where they themselves had a miserable alternative: shunned as "immigrants" who talk with a "peculiar" accent. in particular, having been forced to emigrate to a still collapsing country is not exactly salvation. The Great Balkan Wars was then followed by the Great War (WW-I) itself.
My wife's parents, on both sides, are refugees from Bulgaria, at different times in history. Her mothers' side is as blond as it gets. Certainly not exactly what you'd expect from a "Turkish" physical characteristic, if there is such a thing to begin with.
The story of the collapse of ANY empire is a story of mankind's tragedy.
The point being man has not changed a bit. Even the great European civilization had no effect whatsoever. The "wealth" of the European empires amassed by stealing from the rest of the "uncivilized world" has created a temporary cloak to claim such a noble progress.
But, it failed to hide the ugliness of man long enough. The European is as much of a beast as the Khmer Rouge was, or Idi Amin was. It is all a matter of being at the right place at the right time.
Always watch your back. The so called "civilized" man does not exist.
The EU and the UN is so full of garbage that even a country recognized for its independence, Macedonia, cannot call itself "Macedonia". Instead, it endures the agony of being called FYRM, "The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia".
AntwortenLöschenWhy?
Because Greece objects to that...
Why?
Because, Greece thinks that Macedonia was, has been, and will be Greek. And, Greece has a northern area called "Macedonia", too.
Of course, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia was called Macedonia for who knows how many decades...
And there is not a single soul who stands up and says, WTF, if they call themselves Macedonia, then they are Macedonia, unless, someone had a "COPYRIGHT" or "Trade Mark" on that name.
What to do if Georgia splits from the Union and becomes YET ANOTHER republic of Georgia?
Shall it be called "The Former United States' State Georgia"? Surely, they need some differentiation, say, American Georgia.
People are sick beyond belief.
The mankind is the biggest disease this planet has ever faced.
It is on its way to kill all on Earth along with itself.
Much like certain viruses who kill the body they thrive in, just to eventually kill themselves, too
I find it rather ironic that you should be so vocal and rather histrionic about the recognition of independence of so-called ethnic minorities.
AntwortenLöschenAs a native of Turkey, are you as equally vocal and histrionic about the refusal of your country to offer the Kurdish minority the same privileged you so stridently claim for others?
I certainly hope so.
So true. Some people just need to relax. You and I have strong opinions on various topics. Hell, we disagree most of the time. That is part of debate. Some people are not cut out for it. They want to state their opinion and have everyone agree how fvcking brilliant they are.
AntwortenLöschenTake a ticket and get in line I say!
Gurcan is one of the best people on multiply to discuss controversial issues with. This is so because he is comfortable in his own skin. He is the Mustang not the Edsel!
Oh, that could be said for so many people Randy.
AntwortenLöschenMost members, however, are intelligent enough to sort the wheat from the chaff. Credit goes where credit is due. *wink*
(1) You seem to have read my lines according to your prejudice.
AntwortenLöschenI am neither for or against the independence of this or that in this post. I am simply stating that AFTER the
EU and the UN acknowledged Macedonia as an independent country... AFTER..., they cannot RESOLVE what that country should be called.
To me, that is a sign of total indifference.
They can either conclude that it SHOULD not be called Macedonia. Or, that it COULD.
But, the EU stays out of having any involvement. So, for the EU and the UN, it is "The Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia".
And this has been going on for a long time by now.
How much more can I be disappointed?
(2) I also find it ridiculous, if not deliberately hostile, that you make assumptions and infer conclusions about my position on Turkish-Kurdish issue. If you want to talk about that, I would be more than happy.
However, THIS post is about EU's (of course, meaning the rulers...Many EU citizens hardly have a clue about these things, based on my personal interaction w/ them) line of politics.
Pulling out of your hat a distraction of "Kurds-Turks" will not work. You are only discrediting yourself.
Even if I had a questionable attitude toward Kurdish-Turkish issue, my being smeared in mud does not help you wash your hands clean, does it?
1. Unless I misread your entire post, and its implications, your stance is one of complete accord with the disintegration of a sovereign nation. One, in fact with a very complicated history.
AntwortenLöschen2. You find my parallels between the treatment of the Kurd minority in Turkey and the minorities in the ex-Yugoslavia "ridiculous"? I'd be very interested in knowing why.
Citizens of Kurdish origin have constituted a large ethnic and linguistic group in Turkey. Millions of the country's citizens identified themselves as Kurds and spoke Kurdish. Kurds who publicly or politically asserted their Kurdish identity or publicly espoused using Kurdish in the public domain risked public censure, harassment, or prosecution... and this according to the CIA World Facebook.
If this is indeed the case, I fail to see why my parallels are deemed so "ridiculous".
How does this theory of yours then tie in with the fact that an Islamo-fascist entity has been created in Kosovo... right on the doorstep of Europe?
AntwortenLöschenWith my apologies, you either cannot follow a line of logic, or are one of those who cannot recognize his/her own fallacies.
AntwortenLöschenRather than elaborating on what I say, you prefer to change the subject to your liking.
Good luck and good riddance.
OMG! Have I been offensive?
AntwortenLöschenlol... not to me, no.
AntwortenLöschenOh... now you're refusing to answer my question? I thought you'd be most pleased in correcting my misguided ignorance. :)
AntwortenLöschenAgain, I challenge this assertion on your part. Serbs have always referred to Bosnian muslims as "musilmani". Never have I heard them referred to as "Turks".
AntwortenLöschenIf you have evidence to the contrary... either in the original latin or cyrillic script (I read both)... I'd love to see it.
Cheers.
YES.
AntwortenLöschen