http://hnn.us/articles/1237.html
I've got a lot to say about this link I posted. I was happy to find it, I didn't want to write the whole damned thing myself.
The issue of course is “Is America an Empire?”
We are getting accused of that a lot lately, probably in part because over at least the last 20 years or so, since the fall of the Soviet Union, we have certainly acted like one.
First I'd like to point a couple of things out: While we may run around like stumbling child-giants, we have not, at least until 9-11 showed the classic tendencies of Empires. We have allies, some say we have puppet governments, which isn't totally true. We do have a lot more influence with foreign governments than is probably good, but we don't storm in with the army when one of them gets into trouble. For example, our reaction in Egypt vs what the Soviets did in Hungry.
We have had shadow armies out there, the most recent one where we got our hand caught in the cookie jar was of course in Pakistan, but we have done similar things in South America and probably other places.
I guess my bottom line is the same as the links: If we try to become an empire, we will fail, and the world will be a lot worse off because of our trying.
I think the best thing we could do for the world and ourselves right now is pull the troops home and close the bases, and let everybody sort out their own problems as we sort out ours.
For what it is worth. It will be interesting to see if this particular blog goes anywhere.
If the US was an Empire, it would have taken over lots of Governments, much like the Brits did in the last but one century - places like India being a classic example at the time.
AntwortenLöschenWhat the US does now, is to exert an overwhelming pressure on Governments without actually causing an Empire - this is done mainly because the US and China are now the only remaining superpowers.
As the article mentions though gregers, the Bush Doctrine, that we have the right to use preemptive force, moves us a lot closer to the empire stage. Obviously we have not put a puppet government in Iraq, dissent is real enough there, and they are trying to sue us for $1 billion for damage to Baghdad. Score one point for us. But we are still there, and we are still in Afghanistan, and we clearly are causing a mess in Pakistan.
AntwortenLöschenAnd of course even if you make the case that we are not a military empire, we are on much shakier ground at being an economic one.
The article didn't say we were an empire, it merely suggested we might be on the edge of trying. And if you follow the Bush Doctrine, you are real close to that edge.
I beg to differ on that one... It may be an Iraqi democratically elected government now, but the first two governments in Iraq were definately installed by the USA.
AntwortenLöschenHence the ongoing lack of trust there, and the calls for the "Invaders" to leave.
It takes a while to get the stability for an actual real election. It would have had to be a puppet government, at least for the first one, the only other option is a foreign governor, which Bremer essentially was. We needed to get out of that mode as quickly as possible, particularly since he was inept.
AntwortenLöschenEgypt's government right now is not Democratic, essentially it is a military junta. It couldn't be democratic, there is no way to get real elections in place that quickly.
I think the end result is what we should be judged on in Iraq, not the intermediary steps. And it isn't over until our last soldier is out of there entirely.
The article does not talk about WHAT an empire is.
AntwortenLöschenIMO, the USA *is* a modern time empire with military presence ALL OVER THE WORLD with ground, air and naval bases. The methods of ruling over LESSER nations has changed as well as what to extract off them.
That however does not change the fact that the US has his hands into the world, buying politicians, even whole governments for its greater profitability.
Also, the concept of how an empire enriches itself has changed. Instead of direct taxation, the benefits of American Corporations are secured.
Take Saudi Arabia
Consider Bahrain being nothing but a Naval Base (US' 5th fleet) for US without the burden of it actually being part of the US...
How much more of an "empire" were you looking for?
Like roman legions marching on?
That's exactly the problem I have. Actually Randy brought it up too. We have a lot of bases that needed to be where they are when the USSR was the opposition. The USSR collapsed, and we made no significant moves to closing down any of those bases. They are all still there. We never really had the national debate about pulling back at the time, there was talk of a "peace dividend", but as usual, no one got into specifics. The only excuse for that kind of extended military presence is supporting some kind of empire.
AntwortenLöschenSo if we are an empire, what kind of empire are we? And I think the answer would be "an economic one." That is going to fail miserably too, it is too expensive to maintain, As Britain eventually found out.
Of course America is an Empire, and one day it will fall as all things do. Things fall down.
AntwortenLöschenDoes that make the effort less than worthwhile? I think not.
In the last Century, world leaders met at several Summit meetings to carve up several continents. That's what Empires do, and at the time none of those involved ( except the French ) put up a fuss.
Of course. All empires have been 'economic" except the means of economy have changed substantially. Romans would simply TAX. If the taxation would be done by a local king, it would be a "vassal state", i.e., the king there would have it his way domestically as long as he would cough up the taxes.
AntwortenLöschenThe other kind would be a direct occupation and having YOUR MAN be the head using the locals for lower level administration.
I think EVERY RULER would dream of being an emperor: controlling half the world's REVENUES.
In our times, that has shifted from a RULER to a FINANCIAL ENTITY (or entities). In the case of the US, it is the FED and the Wall Street (I do not have enough insight to EXACTLY pinpoint it, but it is there somewhere)
Hehehehe...
AntwortenLöschenCuz thay had surrendered to Germans right at the beginning!
See "Yalta Conference"
:)
The United States has a military presence in over 150 countries. It really is a mind boggling figure. We've been taught to think of "empires" as aggressive and evil, so of course we *aren't* an empire. But what else do you call a nation with its military protecting "interests" across the globe?
AntwortenLöschenThat is the problem, we Americans have been taught to abhor Empire. Last year I decided to embrace the concept, accept the guilt and use it to empower myself as a citizen of said Empire.
AntwortenLöschenI got around to reading the article. It makes a fine and worthwhile distinction between empire and hegeomony. There is a lot of gray area but on reflection I'd argue that we are more the hegemon than emperor at this point. Much like the original author I'd also argue that if we cross the line into empire it will spell our doom.
AntwortenLöschenYou do not need to be an "Empire" (whatever that means) to eventually collapse. Actually, on the contrary, empires have often a much longer life than all those other petite states.
AntwortenLöschenThink "Roman Empire" for instance...
What exactly is your logic or argument here?
Besides, everyone assumes as if an Empire is necessarily EVIL. Yet, many of the not-even-close-to-being-called-an-empires are well known for their ruthless rulers (Egypt, Libya...)
So, what *is* the thesis here?
That's definitely true.
AntwortenLöschenI'd argue we don't quite fit empire because the leaders of our "vassal states" don't report directly to our President. (at least not in theory). No question we put many of these folks in power so there is a ton of gray area.
There may not be a thesis. Does there have to be one?
AntwortenLöschenPossibly this thread is symptomatic of the fact that many people in the US are realising that their relationship with the rest of the world was not quite as they thought it was, and new definitions are being sought.
I disagree with you. What is this conjecture of yours based on. that the "people" of the US are any different than other western countries?
AntwortenLöschenObviously the article is an "opinion" article, which necessarily embed as thesis of its own. Furthermore, the post itself is asking for inferred thesis, which may vary from one replier to another.
AntwortenLöschenTo suggest that there is none is tantamount to calling the post "entertainment" or "gossip".
LOL
AntwortenLöschenNot at all, I was only trying to keep this thread from becoming anymore unravelled than it already is by expanding it beyond discussion of the US.
Most Brits are already very aware that their past misdemeanours don't exactly make them universally popular in many places.
gossip = discussion.
AntwortenLöschenThat works for me.
I meant it as discussion. Frankly I never considered us an empire until recently. But the events after 9/11 have made me rethink things. The whole basis for what we were doing was supposedly to counteract the Soviet Empire, and they indeed were one in the classic sense. What we were doing was supposed to be stopping that.
AntwortenLöschenThat empire collapsed famously in the 1980's, yet we still continued to do the same things, and further, in 2001 came up with a new enemy, no where near as powerful as the Soviets, as an excuse for doing so. The USSR could have overrun us and most of the planet. The Muslim extremists can't. All they really can do is annoy us on a grand scale, if they are lucky. And it is likely they will lose the desire to do that if we just leave the Muslim countries alone.
So that makes us... yeah. We may have been an empire all along, and never realized it. Has there ever been another empire in history where the citizens did not realize they were members of an empire?
I think we are an empire, in a Mickey Dees and KFC kinda thing.
AntwortenLöschenI tend to think of Empires as governments that constantly acquire new territory and always looking to expand.
AntwortenLöschenThe US, while very powerful, does not do this.
In a way we are, I haven't thought of this before. We will all recall that the US started as 13 states on the eastern edge of a rather large body of land. Does the conquest of the of the habitable land in North America make us an Empire? (even if the empire building ceased in the late 1800's)
AntwortenLöschenand occupied central american countries as it saw it fit?
AntwortenLöschenIf I had put up a poll on the subject of America Being an Empire I think I could have counted on at least one "YES!" vote *grin*.
AntwortenLöschenBTW - where is Bill when you need him?
Doesn't an 'Empire' have to, by definition, have an 'Emperor'?
AntwortenLöschenDo we all agree that the President of the US is not the most powerful individual in the world?
Can you point to anyone that you can call the US' Emperor? Maybe Rockefeller?
I'd say that the Roman Empire was made when Julius crossed the river, before their was an Emperor in power. The American Empire seems to be in a holding pattern, anticipating that return of some conquering hero that unites all by the power of charisma. That charisma would allow that person to exercise his own will in the name of the Empire.
AntwortenLöschenIt's the violation of the Republic that establishes Empire, and that can be found several times in US history. Douglas MacArthur is an example of a leader going a bit to far in his quest for power. States Rights advocates might well view IKE and JFK's use of Federal Troops to enforce integration laws against the will of those State's Governors as such a violation of their Republic.
I'd be happy to learn exactly when the Roman Empire was conceived, when it was born and when it matured. I don't think it happened in a day, and probably not a generation.
For that matter everybody speaks of the British Empire as a fact, and it didn't fit the classic definition of an empire either, though a King is a lot closer to Emperor than a President is. Empire may just be a word meaning the current 900 pound gorilla of the world.
AntwortenLöschenIt once did. http://www.britishempire.co.uk/timeline/timeline.htm
AntwortenLöschen